Top Law Schools

Obviously can't make a final decision until all the aid is set in stone, but for someone who sees themselves working in the South after law school, how do these two schools stack up? I am thinking Atlanta or other larger secondary markets in the Southeast, Texas, maybe even throw DC in there. I know most would say UVA Michigan is clearly a better option, but Is the UVA Michigan advantage here huge, or is the placement between the two largely a symptom from student preferences? If UVA is much stronger in placement, how much do you think that difference is worth in terms of money that may have to be sacrificed if the UVA scholarship doesn't match Michigan?

EDIT
UVA gave me a nice award of $0 so now its between Vandy and Mich. Live in Nashville now and my wife has a job here. Love the area and would love to stay, but obviously want to make the best choice for future career prospects here.

Is this a serious question? Not many people from Michigan go to the South. Some of it is obviously self-selection, but either way there's just not a lot of track record there. I can't imagine Duke and UVA wouldn't be the top choices.

cron1834 wrote:Is this a serious question? Not many people from Michigan go to the South. Some of it is obviously self-selection, but either way there's just not a lot of track record there. I can't imagine Duke and UVA wouldn't be the top choices.

In a perfect world where Duke and UVA gave full rides to everyone who wanted them, I am sure they would be top choices.

Generally wrote:

cron1834 wrote:Is this a serious question? Not many people from Michigan go to the South. Some of it is obviously self-selection, but either way there's just not a lot of track record there. I can't imagine Duke and UVA wouldn't be the top choices.

In a perfect world where Duke and UVA gave full rides to everyone who wanted them, I am sure they would be top choices.

Do you have ties to Atlanta? TX has become - somewhat - easier to break into without ties, and DC will take you with top grades from a T14, but Atlanta is still a "why x" market. A, significantly, larger UVA alumni base in Atlanta could help mitigate lack of ties. UM, you'd have to ball out 1L and be great in interviews.

Minnietron wrote: Do you have ties to Atlanta? TX has become - somewhat - easier to break into without ties, and DC will take you with top grades from a T14, but Atlanta is still a "why x" market. A, significantly, larger UVA alumni base in Atlanta could help mitigate lack of ties. UM, you'd have to ball out 1L and be great in interviews.

I have pretty solid ties to Atlanta, probably should have mentioned that. Have good amount of family still there and from a neighboring state.

For someone who has preexisting ties to the South, both Michigan and UVA are strong choices. As far as placement, it's mostly the case that Michigan graduates tend to self-select into jobs in other markets. That said, UVA's alumni network is stronger in the South, which is advantageous for finding a job and making professional connections. I think its reputation is also more established there, especially as you move away from the major metropolitan areas like Atlanta.

All other things being equal, if you want to work in the South, I'd lean toward UVA.

Generally wrote:
I have pretty solid ties to Atlanta, probably should have mentioned that. Have good amount of family still there and from a neighboring state.

If you think your ties are that solid, then take the money and run. You can work on shoring up the ties with a 1L summer there.

Minnietron wrote:

Generally wrote:
I have pretty solid ties to Atlanta, probably should have mentioned that. Have good amount of family still there and from a neighboring state.

If you think your ties are that solid, then take the money and run. You can work on shoring up the ties with a 1L summer there.

Ah, yes, if there's a significant difference in the cost of attendance, I'd lean toward choosing the less expensive option.

Aeon wrote:

Minnietron wrote:

Generally wrote:
I have pretty solid ties to Atlanta, probably should have mentioned that. Have good amount of family still there and from a neighboring state.

If you think your ties are that solid, then take the money and run. You can work on shoring up the ties with a 1L summer there.

Ah, yes, if there's a significant difference in the cost of attendance, I'd lean toward choosing the less expensive option.

Would you think UVA is worth another 20k or so in this situation?

Generally wrote:

Aeon wrote:

Minnietron wrote:

Generally wrote:
I have pretty solid ties to Atlanta, probably should have mentioned that. Have good amount of family still there and from a neighboring state.

If you think your ties are that solid, then take the money and run. You can work on shoring up the ties with a 1L summer there.

Ah, yes, if there's a significant difference in the cost of attendance, I'd lean toward choosing the less expensive option.

Would you think UVA is worth another 20k or so in this situation?

Mich has had 1 or 2 people a year end up in ATL via OCI over the last 5 years. I don't know Duke or UVA data, and lots of the Mich data is driven by the fact that southerners tend not to go to Ann Arbor for school, but I'd pay a few bucks to stay in the south if I wanted the south. I wouldn't pay $50k. But $20k? Probably. Not more than that, though. Mich is good.

Generally wrote:
Would you think UVA is worth another 20k or so in this situation?

That is up to your personal debt tolerance. For me 20k total would be worth not having to deal with as much snow, although climate change is taking care of that at a rapid pace

Generally wrote:

Aeon wrote:

Minnietron wrote:

Generally wrote:
I have pretty solid ties to Atlanta, probably should have mentioned that. Have good amount of family still there and from a neighboring state.

If you think your ties are that solid, then take the money and run. You can work on shoring up the ties with a 1L summer there.

Ah, yes, if there's a significant difference in the cost of attendance, I'd lean toward choosing the less expensive option.

Would you think UVA is worth another 20k or so in this situation?

I think the answer is different for every person, depending on one's particular financial situation. If you won't have to take out loans (e.g., paying out of savings or having family pay for it), I would argue that $20K may be worth it. If you have to take out loans, but they would be small (e.g., you would mostly have to take out loans to pay for the $20K difference but not for most of the other costs), then it might still be worth it, since you'd be able to pay off that debt relatively quickly. If you'll be financing most of the cost through loans, then, considering the high interest rate and long repayment horizon, I would lean against taking on an additional $20K in debt. But ultimately a lot would depend on your particular debt tolerance.

Have you visited both schools? If you really prefer UVA and think you'd feel better living in Charlottesville, then that would lead to a higher overall level of happiness, which often translates into better law school performance. That alone arguably would be worth an extra $20K.

The main thing about secondary markets is having ties or convincing them that you'll go there. If you already have the ties, then it matters a lot less where you go among the T-14. If you don't have ties, then your school choice matters more, although secondary markets will still be skeptical of a person who's not from the South wanting to stay there even if you go to UVA.

I think the choice should be down to $$$$ though.

So this choice has been made easy with $0 from UVA and $120,000 from Mich. But.... what do yall think about Vandy with $110,000 in scholarships vs Mich here? I live in Nashville already, so it would be very convenient, but would I be sacrificing much if I picked Vandy over Michigan for my goals? I hate to think I am closing doors by choosing a not quite as good school.

Generally wrote:So this choice has been made easy with $0 from UVA and $120,000 from Mich. But.... what do yall think about Vandy with $110,000 in scholarships vs Mich here? I live in Nashville already, so it would be very convenient, but would I be sacrificing much if I picked Vandy over Michigan for my goals? I hate to think I am closing doors by choosing a not quite as good school.

If you can live at home going to Vanderbilt, maybe that could make Vandy $50,000 cheaper than Michigan, in which case it could be justified given that you're okay with non-biglaw, southern placement.

Still, I'm quite debt-adverse and I think Michigan is worth an extra 50k.

Otunga wrote:

Generally wrote:So this choice has been made easy with $0 from UVA and $120,000 from Mich. But.... what do yall think about Vandy with $110,000 in scholarships vs Mich here? I live in Nashville already, so it would be very convenient, but would I be sacrificing much if I picked Vandy over Michigan for my goals? I hate to think I am closing doors by choosing a not quite as good school.

If you can live at home going to Vanderbilt, maybe that could make Vandy $50,000 cheaper than Michigan, in which case it could be justified given that you're okay with non-biglaw, southern placement.

Still, I'm quite debt-adverse and I think Michigan is worth an extra 50k.

I'm grown and married so either way I am paying rent. Also not ok with non-big law really. If its southern law, I want the big law we have here. I.e Atlanta or one of the few firms in Nash that could maybe be considered big

What is the COA of each?

I would go Vanderbilt myself if you want to work in the ties obsessed South. How many firms that you are interested in even do OCI at Michigan ?

You should contact some recent Vandy grads and go out for coffee and ask them about job placement. I don't know the market that well. My understanding is that firms may also be grade obsessed because they hire so few associates compared to other markets.

Generally wrote:

Otunga wrote:

Generally wrote:So this choice has been made easy with $0 from UVA and $120,000 from Mich. But.... what do yall think about Vandy with $110,000 in scholarships vs Mich here? I live in Nashville already, so it would be very convenient, but would I be sacrificing much if I picked Vandy over Michigan for my goals? I hate to think I am closing doors by choosing a not quite as good school.

If you can live at home going to Vanderbilt, maybe that could make Vandy $50,000 cheaper than Michigan, in which case it could be justified given that you're okay with non-biglaw, southern placement.

Still, I'm quite debt-adverse and I think Michigan is worth an extra 50k.

I'm grown and married so either way I am paying rent. Also not ok with non-big law really. If its southern law, I want the big law we have here. I.e Atlanta or one of the few firms in Nash that could maybe be considered big

I'd vote Michigan then - Vandy is simply not a peer given employment outcomes and so shouldn't be attended at the same price. Personally, I think NYC biglaw is way better than a 50k job in TN.

Otunga wrote:

Generally wrote:

Otunga wrote:

Generally wrote:So this choice has been made easy with $0 from UVA and $120,000 from Mich. But.... what do yall think about Vandy with $110,000 in scholarships vs Mich here? I live in Nashville already, so it would be very convenient, but would I be sacrificing much if I picked Vandy over Michigan for my goals? I hate to think I am closing doors by choosing a not quite as good school.

If you can live at home going to Vanderbilt, maybe that could make Vandy $50,000 cheaper than Michigan, in which case it could be justified given that you're okay with non-biglaw, southern placement.

Still, I'm quite debt-adverse and I think Michigan is worth an extra 50k.

I'm grown and married so either way I am paying rent. Also not ok with non-big law really. If its southern law, I want the big law we have here. I.e Atlanta or one of the few firms in Nash that could maybe be considered big

I'd vote Michigan then - Vandy is simply not a peer given employment outcomes and so shouldn't be attended at the same price. Personally, I think NYC biglaw is way better than a 50k job in TN.

OP do you want the South or do you want biglaw anywhere you can find it?

Generally wrote:So this choice has been made easy with $0 from UVA and $120,000 from Mich. But.... what do yall think about Vandy with $110,000 in scholarships vs Mich here? I live in Nashville already, so it would be very convenient, but would I be sacrificing much if I picked Vandy over Michigan for my goals? I hate to think I am closing doors by choosing a not quite as good school.

I'd go to Michigan. Vandy is also very Tennessee centric, I believe. I think any T-14 would be better for Atlanta, Texas, etc. Also you can always do resume drops. I went to a non-Southern T-14 but had friends who did resume drops and got biglaw jobs in the South. Sometimes Southern offices won't go to OCI (since they have trouble recruiting at non-Southern schools), but they are open to resume drops, etc. Since you have ties to the area already, convincing them that you're interested in going back is going to be relatively easy.

krads153 wrote:

Generally wrote:So this choice has been made easy with $0 from UVA and $120,000 from Mich. But.... what do yall think about Vandy with $110,000 in scholarships vs Mich here? I live in Nashville already, so it would be very convenient, but would I be sacrificing much if I picked Vandy over Michigan for my goals? I hate to think I am closing doors by choosing a not quite as good school.

I'd go to Michigan. Vandy is also very Tennessee centric, I believe. I think any T-14 would be better for Atlanta, Texas, etc. Also you can always do resume drops. I went to a non-Southern T-14 but had friends who did resume drops and got biglaw jobs in the South. Sometimes Southern offices won't go to OCI (since they have trouble recruiting at non-Southern schools), but they are open to resume drops, etc. Since you have ties to the area already, convincing them that you're interested in going back is going to be relatively easy.

Yea see top goal is southern big law, but if I can't get it I would much prefer non southern big law to southern 50k shitlaw. I worry Vandy leaves me with a good chance of missing big law, but I don't know perhaps Vandy is just as strong if you are looking at southern big law firms?

I went to school a few years back, but I'll tell you right now (as someone with extremely strong Atlanta ties--stronger than yours) the rank you'd need to get Atlanta from UVA/Michigan really isn't that different from what you'd need to get it from Vanderbilt. Quite frankly, I think you'd be surprised at just how close Vandy is seen by Atlanta firms to UVA/Duke (f your ties to Atlanta are TRULY strong then Michigan is basically the same school as UVA for the big ATL firms,). If you can save 50K going to Vandy I'd do it.

Just my 2 cents.

However, there is going to be a massive difference for biglaw outside of the SE at Vandy vs. UVA/Michigan.

BruceWayne wrote:I went to school a few years back, but I'll tell you right now (as someone with extremely strong Atlanta ties--stronger than yours) the rank you'd need to get Atlanta from UVA/Michigan really isn't that different from what you'd need to get it from Vanderbilt. Quite frankly, I think you'd be surprised at just how close Vandy is seen by Atlanta firms to UVA/Duke (f your ties to Atlanta are TRULY strong then Michigan is basically the same school as UVA for the big ATL firms,). If you can save 50K going to Vandy I'd do it.

Just my 2 cents.

However, there is going to be a massive difference for biglaw outside of the SE at Vandy vs. UVA/Michigan.

what would your 2 cents be if the cost was effectively the same but staying in Nash would be easier and preferred because I like living here?

anecdata: a couple of friends below median from michigan going to top firms in atlanta. they were from that area and htey told me that that made all the difference

BruceWayne wrote:I went to school a few years back, but I'll tell you right now (as someone with extremely strong Atlanta ties--stronger than yours) the rank you'd need to get Atlanta from UVA/Michigan really isn't that different from what you'd need to get it from Vanderbilt. Quite frankly, I think you'd be surprised at just how close Vandy is seen by Atlanta firms to UVA/Duke (f your ties to Atlanta are TRULY strong then Michigan is basically the same school as UVA for the big ATL firms,). If you can save 50K going to Vandy I'd do it.

Just my 2 cents.

However, there is going to be a massive difference for biglaw outside of the SE at Vandy vs. UVA/Michigan.

My NYC firm hires only like top 10% out of vandy...but they take around median or below median from UVA/Mich.