Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It) Forum

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wjlaw

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Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by wjlaw » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:06 pm

Does anyone know why Cardozo Law has been tanking in rankings so recently? I've notice over the past few years there were as high as 50 or so, but have been creeping their way back to down to the mid-70's, with no telling of when they will "bottom-out".

I am asking because I am trying to decide between this school and Washington & Lee Law, and I seriously have no clue which would be the better choice, so I just want to get an understanding of the schools.
Last edited by wjlaw on Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bruceaquizzer1

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by bruceaquizzer1 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:57 pm

People are hating majorly on W&L right now but they tend to forget that not long ago they were regularly in the top 20...

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:02 pm

Do not understand any circumstances attend either Cardozo or W&L without a full ride.

timbs4339

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by timbs4339 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:52 pm

Major fluctuations in USNWR rankings are to be expected. Schools are extremely close and a couple of LSAT median points can result in huge swings. It doesn't matter.

Cardozo is essentially tied for the 4th best law school in the NYC area (something like the 25th behind all the out-of-state schools that feed into New York).

Do you have a STEM background? How much money would you describe as a "good" salary?

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cron1834

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by cron1834 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:27 pm

There is no actual difference to your life between a school ranked 50 and a school ranked 70. It's all nonsense and they're both bad. Only go to these schools on full tuition scholarships, otherwise don't go. They produce too many unemployed graduates.

If you get a massive scholarship, then it MIGHT become worth discussing marginal differences.

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fliptrip

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by fliptrip » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:08 am

cron1834 wrote:There is no actual difference to your life between a school ranked 50 and a school ranked 70. It's all nonsense and they're both bad. Only go to these schools on full tuition scholarships, otherwise don't go. They produce too many unemployed graduates.

If you get a massive scholarship, then it MIGHT become worth discussing marginal differences.
Totally agree that you should avoid both of those schools without a full scholarship and even then, you should be very careful because opportunity cost is real.

But to answer your specific question, I think the USNWR's shift to including employment data more in its rankings probably accounts for the collapse of Cardozo's ranking. Just a guess, though.

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reasonable_man

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by reasonable_man » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:31 am

Oddly enough, job prospects have little to do with the "rankings." So when ignoring the rankings completely (because they are largely meaningless), Cardozo is pretty poor bet. Graduates from Cardozo struggle to find employment just as hard as grads from BLS, St. John's and Hofstra (and to some extent - just as hard as the poor shlubs at NYLS). I'm sure someone will disagree with me here. But that person will be wrong.

Caveat - if you have a STEM background - Cardozo isn't the worst choice in the world. That said, if you intend to practice IP law (like most 0Ls that are for some reason enamored with IP without fully getting what that means), without a STEM background --- well then enter at your own risk.

wjlaw

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by wjlaw » Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:12 am

I do actually have a somewhat of a STEM background; I earned an information science degree from Cornell focusing on HCI. I also have some biology and computer science background to boot, and have done some of my own web design and programming.

With that in mind, does Cardozo seems like the better choice? In terms of salary thinking anything 90k plus to be good upon graduation. I'm not too concerned about living location after graduation, I am most concerned with a strong likelihood of landing a position somewhere, as well as strong national name for the law school.

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reasonable_man

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by reasonable_man » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:00 am

What you should me looking at is whether you qualify to sit for the patent bar. If so, then Cardozo can make sense for you. If you're hoping to go to Cardozo and make it in soft-IP, then get in line with everyone else that's going there.

A starting salary of 90k from Cardozo is far from a sure thing. Assuming employment (which is a big assumption as many of their grads have no jobs upon graduation), the range is the same as it is anywhere else. Lots of grads earning between 45k and 70k to start and a handful earning biglaw 160k salaries (very, very, very few). Those earning 90k upon graduation are few and far between.

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cron1834

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by cron1834 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:42 am

wjlaw wrote:I do actually have a somewhat of a STEM background; I earned an information science degree from Cornell focusing on HCI. I also have some biology and computer science background to boot, and have done some of my own web design and programming.

With that in mind, does Cardozo seems like the better choice? In terms of salary thinking anything 90k plus to be good upon graduation. I'm not too concerned about living location after graduation, I am most concerned with a strong likelihood of landing a position somewhere, as well as strong national name for the law school.
If you want $90k and a strong national name, then no school named in this thread can provide you with that. You need a T14 school if these are your goals. These are not national schools, and a tiny minority of their graduates make that much money.

If you're smart enough to get into and graduate from Cornell, you're smart enough to see the disconnect between your goals and what these schools do. Don't willfully stick your head in the sand.

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reasonable_man

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by reasonable_man » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:50 am

cron1834 wrote:
wjlaw wrote:I do actually have a somewhat of a STEM background; I earned an information science degree from Cornell focusing on HCI. I also have some biology and computer science background to boot, and have done some of my own web design and programming.

With that in mind, does Cardozo seems like the better choice? In terms of salary thinking anything 90k plus to be good upon graduation. I'm not too concerned about living location after graduation, I am most concerned with a strong likelihood of landing a position somewhere, as well as strong national name for the law school.
If you want $90k and a strong national name, then no school named in this thread can provide you with that. You need a T14 school if these are your goals. These are not national schools, and a tiny minority of their graduates make that much money.

If you're smart enough to get into and graduate from Cornell, you're smart enough to see the disconnect between your goals and what these schools do. Don't willfully stick your head in the sand.
This is 100% correct.

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by wjlaw » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:16 am

Well, I've got good money to both, and I'm not afraid to go JAG or public service or whatever to attempt to cover any debt obligations if it seems I cannot earn a solid position upon graduation. What I am concerned with is which of these two schools offers the better chance at my goal. Again, I'm not too worried about the risk, because I have little to lose, other than the opportunity cost of attending law school (and I'm fine just practicing law).

On another note, not to put all my eggs in one basket, does anyone know if there is any difference in the chance for transferring "up" from either of these schools? As in, if wanted to transfer up to a T14, or near T14, from one of these schools, does either school offer an advantage?
Last edited by wjlaw on Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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reasonable_man

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by reasonable_man » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:41 am

wjlaw wrote:Well, I've got good money to both, and I'm not afraid to go JAG to cover the extra costs if I cannot earn a solid position upon graduation.
You do realize that EARNING a JAG spot is incredibly difficult and competitive; right?
wjlaw wrote: (and I'm fine just practicing law).
What does this even mean?
wjlaw wrote:transferring "up"
So you're going to be one of those people in the top 10%? You do know that 90% of the class won't be in the top 10%'; right?

It's 2016. Please educate yourself a bit about what you're doing. Have a look: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cardozo/

From LST:

The school has slid 5 points in median LSAT over the last 4 years. Underemployment score for graduates is a startling 26%. Only 78% of their grads even passed the 2015 bar. That means that 22% failed the damn test. And even more troubling -- Cardozo is one of only 78 of approximately 200 ABA approved law schools that refuses, year after year, to release its NALP (i.e. salary and job placement data). Why do you suppose that is?

Read between the lines my friend.

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wjlaw

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by wjlaw » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:10 pm

Well, first off, I meant transferring into a better law school, such as a school with better job placement, or more importantly, just a better reputation. If you have any information or insights relevant to factors involved in transferring law schools would be appreciated. Thanks for the lsts reports tool; I'm essentially looking up law schools on my own, which is why I decided to start this thread, and things like this help.

Second, to address your other points, I am aware that earning top 10% isn't likely. As I stated before, I have pretty good offers, and not much financial risk or burden from attending. Honestly, money is not something that is all too important for me, and I am the type of person who is actually fine competing to be number one in the school, which I have done before. Honestly, I just like to compete, as crazy as it may sound. However, I'm still interested into getting into the best law school possible because I like having options at the same time, hence this thread. I'm trying to get a better understanding of Cardozo, and W&L, and to understand the usual law school rankings and what causes significant shifts in them.

I am not going to law school just to make a lot of money, I actually want to practice law because doing legal research is just something I enjoy doing. Now more money is always good, but if I cannot earn a top salary, I'm not pulling my hair out. Again, I'm not facing much debt by attending. Guess I should have explained that in the original post.
Last edited by wjlaw on Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:14 pm

wjlaw wrote:I am not going to law school just to make a lot of money, I actually want to practice law because doing legal research is just something I enjoy doing. Now more money is always good, but if I cannot earn a top salary, I'm not pulling my hair out. Guess I should have explained that in the original post.
Before you commit yourself to a lifetime of low salary and large debt, please describe the background that leads you to believe you will enjoy legal research for 40 years.

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Re: Cardozo Law Rankings Change (Is It Worth It)

Post by cron1834 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:41 pm

wjlaw wrote:Well, I've got good money to both, and I'm not afraid to go JAG to cover the extra costs if I cannot earn a solid position upon graduation. What I am concerned with is which of these two schools offers the better chance at my goal. Again, I'm not too worried about the risk, because I have little to lose, other than the opportunity cost of attending law school (and I'm fine just practicing law).

On another note, not to put all my eggs in one basket, does anyone know if there is any difference in the chance for transferring "up" from either of these schools? As in, if wanted to transfer up to a T14, or near T14, from one of these schools, does either school offer an advantage?
Well, you mentioned $90k and you mentioned national reputation. Now you want a "solid position"? Or JAG? I'm entirely unsure what your goals are.

This is the bottom line, though - WHATEVER job you want, Bozo Law is not going to make it very likely for you to get it. It might be slightly less bad than some peer school, or slightly better, but that misses the point. Any desirable job is hard to get from a crap school. Transferring is also hard from a crap school, because everyone else has the same plan.

Since you understand opportunity cost, consider this: the greatest opportunity cost in play here isn't the 3 years of missed earnings while you're in school ... it's the 40 years of better career options you gave up by going to Bozo instead of retaking a multiple choice test.

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