T14 at Sticker for PI Forum

[cheese]

I want to pursue a career in public interest and am wondering if a T14 at sticker would be worth it in that scenario. I wouldn't consider paying sticker anywhere but HYS otherwise, but looking into various schools LRAPs it seems like some of them are pretty good. I'm obviously not interested in being rich, especially right out of law school, but I am wondering whether LRAPs might make a decent standard of living possible.

Edit: my GPA is 3.6 and LSAT is 166, though i plan on retaking in June and applying next cycle.

[cron1834]

This has been debated to death. Do a little searching and you'll find comments from very informed posters. My takeaway is that this is plausible, but very risky, as most of the programs are tied to a) gov programs and b) (implicitly) the overall economic health of the school.

I wouldn't aim for this unless student debt suddenly becomes dischargeable in BK court, personally.

[twenty]

Attend a school in the region you want to practice public interest law with a full ride scholarship. The best LRAP is the one where you don't have any debt.

[lavarman84]

My knowledge of tax isn't great and I know next to nothing about LRAP but if the debt is forgiven down the road after you go the PI route, won't the debt forgiveness be imputed to you as income?

Obviously, that's a number of years off and I could be completely wrong. So if there's a person who's more knowledgeable about LRAP and tax who knows differently, don't hesitate to correct me. But I do think it's worth considering (if it's true) when deciding whether to take on so much debt.

[SamuelDanforth]

My knowledge of tax isn't great and I know next to nothing about LRAP but if the debt is forgiven down the road after you go the PI route, won't the debt forgiveness be imputed to you as income?

Obviously, that's a number of years off and I could be completely wrong. So if there's a person who's more knowledgeable about LRAP and tax who knows differently, don't hesitate to correct me. But I do think it's worth considering (if it's true) when deciding whether to take on so much debt.

I don't fully understand either, but Columbia's LRAP program has this explanation:

"For participants working in government or a 501(c)(3) organization, LRAP loan amounts
forgiven may not be considered taxable income. For participants working in LRAP-eligible
positions in the private sector or outside the US, LRAP loan forgiveness is reported to the IRS
and a Form 1099-MISC is issued. Please consult with a tax advisor regarding IRS reporting
requirements."

Basically Columbia is issuing you a loan to cover your own loan, and then they forgive their loan if you stay in the program for ten years -- so Columbia's yearly "loan" isn't taxable income. What *is* unclear is if the loan forgiveness at the end of the program is counted as taxable income.

[Tls2016]

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch05.html

not taxable for qualifying PI.
Columbia explains it clearly.

[Trippel]

Here's what the ABA says:

http://www.americanbar.org/publications ... loans.html

Generally, it seems loan forgiveness for public interest work is exempt from taxable income.

[Toodle-loo]

Attend a school in the region you want to practice public interest law with a full ride scholarship. The best LRAP is the one where you don't have any debt.

So, I'm in a similar situation, and it isn't so easy if you don't know where you want to practice. My s/o will be pursuing a graduate degree after I finish my J.D., and I'm geographically flexible to go wherever he goes. So, I'd like to go for free and not have debt, but I also don't want to end up wherever he's going and then not have a degree/alum network that can connect me to employment and opportunities.

[cron1834]

Attend a school in the region you want to practice public interest law with a full ride scholarship. The best LRAP is the one where you don't have any debt.

So, I'm in a similar situation, and it isn't so easy if you don't know where you want to practice. My s/o will be pursuing a graduate degree after I finish my J.D., and I'm geographically flexible to go wherever he goes. So, I'd like to go for free and not have debt, but I also don't want to end up wherever he's going and then not have a degree/alum network that can connect me to employment and opportunities.

Maybe you shouldn't make employment plans based on someone else's grad program that won't begin for 4+ years in the best case?

Twenty's advice is good for the vast majority of people.

[Toodle-loo]

Maybe you shouldn't make employment plans based on someone else's grad program that won't begin for 4+ years in the best case?

Twenty's advice is good for the vast majority of people.

That "someone else" is my spouse. Permanently. For the rest of my life. And it's not just about the "grad program", it's about the jobs he might take AFTER THAT. I *have* to take his career into consideration, period. He considers mine too, but just "not making plans based on his plans" isn't an option, and I really don't appreciate the condescension in tone like it isn't completely reasonable for us to plan for our futures together.

I realize that the advice holds for "most people", but that doesn't mean that people in special situations shouldn't also be able to ask for considered advice.

[practicetest]

I realize that the advice holds for "most people", but that doesn't mean that people in special situations shouldn't also be able to ask for considered advice.

I agree with you, but unfortunately this is asking way too much of TLS. It's all aboard the dogma train or gtfo.

[Tls2016]

Attend a school in the region you want to practice public interest law with a full ride scholarship. The best LRAP is the one where you don't have any debt.

So, I'm in a similar situation, and it isn't so easy if you don't know where you want to practice. My s/o will be pursuing a graduate degree after I finish my J.D., and I'm geographically flexible to go wherever he goes. So, I'd like to go for free and not have debt, but I also don't want to end up wherever he's going and then not have a degree/alum network that can connect me to employment and opportunities.

Huh. This is a tough situation because law isn't geographically flexible. It's going to be harder for you to find a job somewhere outside your schools placement area in PI because most PI jobs hire people they know through internships and clinics.

Edited to add: No one was questioning your relationship. They were qauestioning your decision to go to law school with no idea where you want to practice.

[Toodle-loo]

Huh. This is a tough situation because law isn't geographically flexible. It's going to be harder for you to find a job somewhere outside your schools placement area in PI because most PI jobs hire people they know through internships and clinics.

Unless you go to a T14, which has more national reach. Hence the struggle in the decision.

[Toodle-loo]

I realize that the advice holds for "most people", but that doesn't mean that people in special situations shouldn't also be able to ask for considered advice.

I agree with you, but unfortunately this is asking way too much of TLS. It's all aboard the dogma train or gtfo.

lol for real.

[Tls2016]

Huh. This is a tough situation because law isn't geographically flexible. It's going to be harder for you to find a job somewhere outside your schools placement area in PI because most PI jobs hire people they know through internships and clinics.

Unless you go to a T14, which has more national reach. Hence the struggle in the decision.

Where were you accepted? I understand about the idea of national reach that a lot of 0Ls have, but that doesn't change what I explained about PI hiring practices.

Edit to add: there are some markets where going to a T14 instead of the local school is seen as a negative factor, like Washington state. I'm not exaggerating the usefulness of connection to your market to get a job.

[Tls2016]

I realize that the advice holds for "most people", but that doesn't mean that people in special situations shouldn't also be able to ask for considered advice.

I agree with you, but unfortunately this is asking way too much of TLS. It's all aboard the dogma train or gtfo.

I really disagree with this. I find it surprising that so many 0Ls ask for advice and yet just want to argue with it. But, you do you.

[Toodle-loo]

Where were you accepted? I understand about the idea of national reach that a lot of 0Ls have, but that doesn't change what I explained about PI hiring practices.

Obviously, previous connections and experience is a huge benefit in PI orgs. I've been accepted to Duke, UMich, and Georgetown - no money. UNC Chapel Hill, William and Mary, money.

I'd like to either be in PI (think Government, AUSA/Federal criminal things, some larger non-profits potentially, etc.) or a small/mid-sized firm that primarily represents individuals in criminal/family law proceedings (google Joe Cheshire Raleigh NC for an idea of the type of firm). The only "big law" I might be interested in would be a big firm that REPRESENTS non-profits/community-based orgs.

[practicetest]

I realize that the advice holds for "most people", but that doesn't mean that people in special situations shouldn't also be able to ask for considered advice.

I agree with you, but unfortunately this is asking way too much of TLS. It's all aboard the dogma train or gtfo.

I really disagree with this. I find it surprising that so many 0Ls ask for advice and yet just want to argue with it. But, you do you.

Arguing with advice is different from pointing out that the same advice, by definition, cannot apply to every single person. There are of course things everyone should do, and can learn (like retaking the LSAT as many times as possible, for instance), but thinking critically about how blanket advice applies (or doesn't) to one's own situation and ambitions is not "0Ls being dumb." But again, that's how it's gonna be read by the majority of posters on here.

[Tls2016]

I realize that the advice holds for "most people", but that doesn't mean that people in special situations shouldn't also be able to ask for considered advice.

I agree with you, but unfortunately this is asking way too much of TLS. It's all aboard the dogma train or gtfo.

I really disagree with this. I find it surprising that so many 0Ls ask for advice and yet just want to argue with it. But, you do you.

Arguing with advice is different from pointing out that the same advice, by definition, cannot apply to every single person. There are of course things everyone should do, and can learn (like retaking the LSAT as many times as possible, for instance), but thinking critically about how blanket advice applies (or doesn't) to one's own situation and ambitions is not "0Ls being dumb." But again, that's how it's gonna be read by the majority of posters on here.

That is not what you said and I didn't say anything about the poster or any OL being dumb. She was asking about PI at sticker when she doesn't know where she will end up.
One person explained why this was a bad idea, and OP got defensive. Her future life plans, which may or may not change, don't change the reality of how hiring works.

If I thought 0Ls were dumb I wouldn't waste my time. I think most 0Ls are naive about law and law school.

[Toodle-loo]

That is not what you said and I didn't say anything about the poster or any OL being dumb. She was asking about PI at sticker when she doesn't know where she will end up.
One person explained why this was a bad idea, and OP got defensive. Her future life plans, which may or may not change, don't change the reality of how hiring works.

If I thought 0Ls were dumb I wouldn't waste my time. I think most 0Ls are naive about law and law school.

To clarify, I didn't get defensive about "how hiring works", I was more upset by the notion that I shouldn't "plan my employment around someone else's plans 4 years from now", because it's not really an option for me to do it any differently.

I'm not upset by the reality of hiring practices at all, I understand generally how they work and that it sucks for some situations including mine, but there's no way to get around it really. All I can do is mitigate.

[Tls2016]

Where were you accepted? I understand about the idea of national reach that a lot of 0Ls have, but that doesn't change what I explained about PI hiring practices.

Obviously, previous connections and experience is a huge benefit in PI orgs. I've been accepted to Duke, UMich, and Georgetown - no money. UNC Chapel Hill, William and Mary, money.

I'd like to either be in PI (think Government, AUSA/Federal criminal things, some larger non-profits potentially, etc.) or a small/mid-sized firm that primarily represents individuals in criminal/family law proceedings (google Joe Cheshire Raleigh NC for an idea of the type of firm). The only "big law" I might be interested in would be a big firm that REPRESENTS non-profits/community-based orgs.

Maybe you should start your own separate advice thread and get input from other people. You have a wide range of what you might do, where you might live, and this thread is about PI for sticker.

This is a tough situation to give good advice. Going to T14 at sticker, even if your spouse supports your COL, is usually recommended ( though I'm extremely debt averse) because it is the best shot at biglaw, a biglaw salary and debt repayment. You will be putting your family in a huge amount of debt. I don't know if it's worth it for you.

[Tls2016]

That is not what you said and I didn't say anything about the poster or any OL being dumb. She was asking about PI at sticker when she doesn't know where she will end up.
One person explained why this was a bad idea, and OP got defensive. Her future life plans, which may or may not change, don't change the reality of how hiring works.

If I thought 0Ls were dumb I wouldn't waste my time. I think most 0Ls are naive about law and law school.

To clarify, I didn't get defensive about "how hiring works", I was more upset by the notion that I shouldn't "plan my employment around someone else's plans 4 years from now", because it's not really an option for me to do it any differently.

I'm not upset by the reality of hiring practices at all, I understand generally how they work and that it sucks for some situations including mine, but there's no way to get around it really. All I can do is mitigate.

Yeah, I can understand your take on it, but that doesn't mean it's bad advice.
You and your spouse need to at least come up with some region of the US you want to live in and start from there.
Law really isn't that flexible. You need ties to markets to get jobs out of school, outside of New York biglaw.

[Toodle-loo]

Maybe you should start your own separate advice thread and get input from other people. You have a wide range of what you might do, where you might live, and this thread is about PI for sticker.

This is a tough situation to give good advice. Going to T14 at sticker, even if your spouse supports your COL, is usually recommended ( though I'm extremely debt averse) because it is the best shot at biglaw, a biglaw salary and debt repayment. You will be putting your family in a huge amount of debt. I don't know if it's worth it for you.

Yup, even without COL I'd be looking at 200k. I've toyed with the idea of starting my own thread, and I might. Thanks for your input. (For the record though, I've never seen a consensus on this thread recommend going to anywhere non-YHS for sticker for any reason at all.)

Sorry for derailing the conversation OP, back to it!

[Toodle-loo]

Yeah, I can understand your take on it, but that doesn't mean it's bad advice.
You and your spouse need to at least come up with some region of the US you want to live in and start from there.
Law really isn't that flexible. You need ties to markets to get jobs out of school, outside of New York biglaw.

We have a "region" in mind that we prefer, but it's a big "region" - pretty much the Northeast, DC to NY would be *best case* scenario.

[03152016]

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