Top Law Schools

1. Scholarship money (ex. full ride at T2 vs no $$ at T1)
2. Location (COL, access to local market)
3. First time passage rating


IMO T-14 or bust is ridiculous. Law school is a gamble.

There are other factors that come into play but as I sit here studying for the LSAT, I felt like jotting down my top decision makers.

Personally, I'd rather go to a T2 school with full ride, strong regional presence and decent passer rating like New Mexico than any of the Top 14 at sticker. Taking out 50K (for COL) vs 150-300K (sticker + COL) will ruin the livelihood of the majority that take this gamble.

-Today's 'Is law school worth it?' rant.

Your entire rationale is based on a false dichotomy.

TLSers rarely, if EVER, advocates for attending a T14 at sticker. The general advice/consensus on these fora most typically involves maximizing your chances for scholarships at the best law school you can get into. I.e. Retake, retake, & retake until you pwn the LSAT.

Most T2, TTT, and TTTTs give less than a coin flip of a chance of actually practicing law. And those that are fortunate enough to actually find employment end up in shitlaw making a pitiful salary.

Attending one of those law schools, even on a sizable scholarship, is often far more debilitating on a person's future than would taking on debt for a t14.

magnum_law wrote:Your entire rationale is based on a false dichotomy.

TLSers rarely, if EVER, advocates for attending a T14 at sticker. The general advice/consensus on these fora most typically involves maximizing your chances for scholarships at the best law school you can get into. I.e. Retake, retake, & retake until you pwn the LSAT.

Most T2, TTT, and TTTTs give less than a coin flip of a chance of actually practicing law. And those that are fortunate enough to actually find employment end up in shitlaw making a pitiful salary.

Attending one of those law schools, even on a sizable scholarship, is often far more debilitating on a person's future than would taking on debt for a t14.

Appreciate the quick response.

It depends on what type of lifestyle you want.

Living comfortable @ 70-80K a year with less responsibilities
vs
150K a year busting your ass @ a V20+

T2 with a Full ride will accomplish the first..

jeremydc wrote:It depends on what type of lifestyle you want.

Living comfortable @ 70-80K a year with less responsibilities
vs
150K a year busting your ass @ a V20+

T2 with a Full ride will accomplish the first..

Most T2 graduates who graduated with < $50k debt are living comfortably on $70-80k a year with less responsibilities? I think you may be overinflating salary data while downplaying the amount of work that goes into small law

You're probably right.

As the above poster mentioned, landing a cushy 80k/year gig out of a T2 is optimistic as hell, if not unrealistic altogether. You can more reasonablely expect a demanding small firm that pays 40-50k.

Magnum Law has TLS' typical response down but I am going to for the sake of fun ask you to think about this in a different way, as the law school decision making process (and many other life decisions with financial implications) is an emotionally charged one.

Let's imagine instead you are a professional gambler, and you can sit at any number of tables. Some tables are have a very high buy in, but the odds in that game are very favorable to you? Would you play with the houses money (scholarships) and some of your own (COL) and the opportunity to play a totally different game (different career path for time being)? Would you sit at this table if you had to be loaned the money and must pay the bookkeeper back if you lose (remember bookies don't forgive debts)?

Or would you rather play at one of a 100 or so progressively less favorable tables where the odds compared to the first 14 tables are substantially less? These odds get so bad it is essentially like playing the lottery and the payoff is minimal even if you do win. Would you play for free here at the cost of another game? No rational person would play one of these tables at the same cost to sit at the high payoff tables.

Just food for thought. Not trying to belittle what is obviously an emotionally charged decision but our thought process may be different when thought of in other terms

magnum_law wrote:As the above poster mentioned, landing a cushy 80k/year gig out of a T2 is optimistic as hell, if not unrealistic altogether. You can more reasonablely expect a demanding small firm that pays 40-50k.

What's more realistic though T2 @ 70K in a strong regional market or top 14 @ 150 K?

Not being sarcastic

Hornet2011 wrote:Magnum Law has TLS' typical response down but I am going to for the sake of fun ask you to think about this in a different way, as the law school decision making process (and many other life decisions with financial implications) is an emotionally charged one.

Let's imagine instead you are a professional gambler, and you can sit at any number of tables. Some tables are have a very high buy in, but the odds in that game are very favorable to you? Would you play with the houses money (scholarships) and some of your own (COL) and the opportunity to play a totally different game (different career path for time being)? Would you sit at this table if you had to be loaned the money and must pay the bookkeeper back if you lose (remember bookies don't forgive debts)?

Or would you rather play at one of a 100 or so progressively less favorable tables where the odds compared to the first 14 tables are substantially less? These odds get so bad it is essentially like playing the lottery and the payoff is minimal even if you do win. Would you play for free here at the cost of another game? No rational person would play one of these tables at the same cost to sit at the high payoff tables.

Just food for thought. Not trying to belittle what is obviously an emotionally charged decision but our thought process may be different when thought of in other terms

financially

jeremydc wrote:

magnum_law wrote:As the above poster mentioned, landing a cushy 80k/year gig out of a T2 is optimistic as hell, if not unrealistic altogether. You can more reasonablely expect a demanding small firm that pays 40-50k.

What's more realistic though T2 @ 70K in a strong regional market or top 14 @ 150 K?

Not being sarcastic

On average at a T14, you will more likely than not make 160k+. Almost every T14 has biglaw numbers far exceeding 50% of the class entering biglaw and/or clerking at the federal level.

I'd say that there's a better chance of you starting off as a solo practictioner or at a firm with <10 people than anything else graduating from a T2. The chances of you pulling $70k in your first few years from your average T2 have to be well below 50%. Well, well below.

Hornet2011 wrote:Magnum Law has TLS' typical response down but I am going to for the sake of fun ask you to think about this in a different way, as the law school decision making process (and many other life decisions with financial implications) is an emotionally charged one.

Let's imagine instead you are a professional gambler, and you can sit at any number of tables. Some tables are have a very high buy in, but the odds in that game are very favorable to you? Would you play with the houses money (scholarships) and some of your own (COL) and the opportunity to play a totally different game (different career path for time being)? Would you sit at this table if you had to be loaned the money and must pay the bookkeeper back if you lose (remember bookies don't forgive debts)?

Or would you rather play at one of a 100 or so progressively less favorable tables where the odds compared to the first 14 tables are substantially less? These odds get so bad it is essentially like playing the lottery and the payoff is minimal even if you do win. Would you play for free here at the cost of another game? No rational person would play one of these tables at the same cost to sit at the high payoff tables.

Just food for thought. Not trying to belittle what is obviously an emotionally charged decision but our thought process may be different when thought of in other terms

Different thinking for sure. Not belittling at all. I appreciate the analogy.

cheaptilts wrote:

jeremydc wrote:

magnum_law wrote:As the above poster mentioned, landing a cushy 80k/year gig out of a T2 is optimistic as hell, if not unrealistic altogether. You can more reasonablely expect a demanding small firm that pays 40-50k.

What's more realistic though T2 @ 70K in a strong regional market or top 14 @ 150 K?

Not being sarcastic

On average at a T14, you will more likely than not make 160k+. Almost every T14 has biglaw numbers far exceeding 50% of the class entering biglaw and/or clerking at the federal level.

I'd say that there's a better chance of you starting off as a solo practictioner or at a firm with <10 people than anything else graduating from a T2. The chances of you pulling $70k in your first few years from your average T2 have to be well below 50%. Well, well below.

Another thanks. Appreciate it.
But I'm not talking about your 'average' T2.

jeremydc wrote:

cheaptilts wrote:

jeremydc wrote:

magnum_law wrote:As the above poster mentioned, landing a cushy 80k/year gig out of a T2 is optimistic as hell, if not unrealistic altogether. You can more reasonablely expect a demanding small firm that pays 40-50k.

What's more realistic though T2 @ 70K in a strong regional market or top 14 @ 150 K?

Not being sarcastic

On average at a T14, you will more likely than not make 160k+. Almost every T14 has biglaw numbers far exceeding 50% of the class entering biglaw and/or clerking at the federal level.

I'd say that there's a better chance of you starting off as a solo practictioner or at a firm with <10 people than anything else graduating from a T2. The chances of you pulling $70k in your first few years from your average T2 have to be well below 50%. Well, well below.

Another thanks. Appreciate it.
But I'm not talking about your 'average' T2.

What mystery tier 2 has decent employment stats again?

Also jobs that start at 80k essentially don't exist, TT or T14 for that matter.

I don't think there's a lot of freshly minted grads (or old lawyers for that matter) chillin' and kicking back with their relatively cush 70-80K gigs. There's plenty of people (including T14ers and big lawyers) who would jump on those jobs if they were real.

I don't think you really understand what the job market is like (or what you read on TLS for that matter)

Clearly wrote:

jeremydc wrote:

cheaptilts wrote:

jeremydc wrote:

magnum_law wrote:As the above poster mentioned, landing a cushy 80k/year gig out of a T2 is optimistic as hell, if not unrealistic altogether. You can more reasonablely expect a demanding small firm that pays 40-50k.

What's more realistic though T2 @ 70K in a strong regional market or top 14 @ 150 K?

Not being sarcastic

On average at a T14, you will more likely than not make 160k+. Almost every T14 has biglaw numbers far exceeding 50% of the class entering biglaw and/or clerking at the federal level.

I'd say that there's a better chance of you starting off as a solo practictioner or at a firm with <10 people than anything else graduating from a T2. The chances of you pulling $70k in your first few years from your average T2 have to be well below 50%. Well, well below.

Another thanks. Appreciate it.
But I'm not talking about your 'average' T2.

What mystery tier 2 has decent employment stats again?

Also jobs that start at 80k essentially don't exist, TT or T14 for that matter.

The OP mentioned New Mexico, but I don't think he's actually looked at LST. Looks like about 80% of New Mexico grads end up with a job, but median salary is $50k, and 75% salary is only 62K

Again, it was just a thought.

Thanks y'all

Hornet2011 wrote:Magnum Law has TLS' typical response down but I am going to for the sake of fun ask you to think about this in a different way, as the law school decision making process (and many other life decisions with financial implications) is an emotionally charged one.

Let's imagine instead you are a professional gambler, and you can sit at any number of tables. Some tables are have a very high buy in, but the odds in that game are very favorable to you? Would you play with the houses money (scholarships) and some of your own (COL) and the opportunity to play a totally different game (different career path for time being)? Would you sit at this table if you had to be loaned the money and must pay the bookkeeper back if you lose (remember bookies don't forgive debts)?

Or would you rather play at one of a 100 or so progressively less favorable tables where the odds compared to the first 14 tables are substantially less? These odds get so bad it is essentially like playing the lottery and the payoff is minimal even if you do win. Would you play for free here at the cost of another game? No rational person would play one of these tables at the same cost to sit at the high payoff tables.

Just food for thought. Not trying to belittle what is obviously an emotionally charged decision but our thought process may be different when thought of in other terms

Nope, same thought process. Professional gamblers make money by winning. Winning requires favorable odds (regardless of amount at risk). I would rather borrow 10k and play a game with a 70/30 chance of winning. In fact, if such a game existed, I would play it over and over again full time till I died (because its a guaranteed profit). On the other hand, a game played with pennies that has low odds and a low payout would be ignored by every gambler alive, the only draw would be the entertainment value of losing a small sum of money (and I can assure you law school is not entertaining).

There's nothing wrong with T-1 with full ride in the geographical area you want to practice in. No one said T-14 or bust.

<---T1 with full ride. No regrets. No good summer job yet, but every semester, I don't pay tuition and I get a sweet $2,000 check from the school.

jrc223 wrote:The OP mentioned New Mexico, but I don't think he's actually looked at LST. Looks like about 80% of New Mexico grads end up with a job, but median salary is $50k, and 75% salary is only 62K

I agree overall about the kinds of jobs out there and the points people are making. I will just point out that living in New Mexico is really cheap, so it's not the worst example in the world if you're willing to stretch the OP's hypo a bit.

I noticed that you've failed to even consider anything regarding the profession you want to enter. What do you want to do? What kind of law, types of clients, salary range, career path, type of employer?

This, in my mind, is the most important question you need to ask before considering law school. It will determine how much of all the other things you identified you need to worry about. If you can't identify with reasonable specificity the answer to this question, then you should put the LSAT books away for a couple years.

timbs4339 wrote:I noticed that you've failed to even consider anything regarding the profession you want to enter. What do you want to do? What kind of law, types of clients, salary range, career path, type of employer?

This, in my mind, is the most important question you need to ask before considering law school. It will determine how much of all the other things you identified you need to worry about. If you can't identify with reasonable specificity the answer to this question, then you should put the LSAT books away for a couple years.

What do you want to do? Education policies
What kind of law, PI/Immigration
types of clients, Legal/Illegal immigrants
salary range, 40-60K
career path, Eventually venture out and start my own NGO
type of employer? NGO


It was just a thought but I should have clarified a bit more. I'm interested in Duel degree JD/PHD (Linguistics/Education) programs. Many schools in states with high concentrations of immigrants (Texas, Arizona, Mexico) offer these types of programs. Interestingly, some offer instate tuition for certain PHD programs for residents of Western states (Western Regional Graduate Program).

A full ride at one of these schools (Arizona, Texas Tech , New Mexico realistically) coupled with in state tuition (PHD), I could walk out the door with around 100K debt. Even at 200K, I could pay that off in 5 years if I bit the bullet and worked with a few of my classmates in Saudi.

I'm a realist. If I don't get offered a full ride to at least a TT, I won't do it. I'll do a hybrid PHD program while working at a university abroad like I am now (but be in a better position).

BigZuck wrote:I don't think there's a lot of freshly minted grads (or old lawyers for that matter) chillin' and kicking back with their relatively cush 70-80K gigs. There's plenty of people (including T14ers and big lawyers) who would jump on those jobs if they were real.

I don't think you really understand what the job market is like (or what you read on TLS for that matter)

They exist, mid sized law firms. Many start ~90k

Cochran wrote:

BigZuck wrote:I don't think there's a lot of freshly minted grads (or old lawyers for that matter) chillin' and kicking back with their relatively cush 70-80K gigs. There's plenty of people (including T14ers and big lawyers) who would jump on those jobs if they were real.

I don't think you really understand what the job market is like (or what you read on TLS for that matter)

They exist, mid sized law firms. Many start ~90k

These firms don't hire many people, and rarely hire fresh grads.

Cochran wrote:

BigZuck wrote:I don't think there's a lot of freshly minted grads (or old lawyers for that matter) chillin' and kicking back with their relatively cush 70-80K gigs. There's plenty of people (including T14ers and big lawyers) who would jump on those jobs if they were real.

I don't think you really understand what the job market is like (or what you read on TLS for that matter)

They exist, mid sized law firms. Many start ~90k

I shouldn't have said "real" I guess, but what I was thinking about is the availability of these jobs for freshly minted JDs