Four years abroad as ESL 'Teacher' Forum

[jeremydc]

Aloha everyone,

I've been abroad 'teaching' English for about 3 1/2 years now. I've taught 2 years in Korea at a public school and will start my second year at a university in China. It's been fun traveling, saving money, and living a low stress lifestyle. However, ESL has a low ceiling and it's time to begin my exit plan. After graduating in 2012 with my BA, I decided to travel for a few years before committing years to complete a graduate degree. I took the LSAT in 2012 with a weeks notice and received a 146 (yeah yeah, I know) before traveling abroad. While teaching in Korea, I started my MA-TESOL (in class from a brick and mortar in the US that sends professors abroad). I figured since I had some free time, might as well add a line to my resume.

I enjoy working with children. I volunteer weekly at various NGOs and would like to continue helping children in a similar capacity. I'm looking at:
- Tier 2 -Tier 3 schools
- Focus on Asian studies or International Law
- Low COL
- Decent scholarship
*** If I have to take out more than 50,000$ in loans then I'll pursue a PhD. abroad.

I am planning on taking the LSAT next October and will apply in 2017.

Without an official score, all of this is fluff but a 160 and a year to study is highly plausible.

[ManoftheHour]

Maybe I missed something, but from reading your post, law school sounds like a terrible option. Why do you want to go to law school?

I enjoy working with children. I volunteer weekly at various NGOs and would like to continue helping children in a similar capacity.

There are so many better ways to do this. There really isn't a market for this in law (I mean sure, there are some jobs, but not many and they won't pay well).

- Focus on Asian studies (Hawaii) or International (Vermont)

If I were a betting man, I would bet you will literally not touch any of this stuff in law school.

Unless more info is given, it sounds like a PH.D is a better option. It seems like you like teaching and helping kids. You also have good teaching experience (my sister and friends did this kind of thing and they all have jobs). You could probably get a sweet gig as a teacher in a low income area. Some of my friends went abroad and are now in such positions. Pays $45-50k plus benefits...which is probably what someone would make coming out of law school at a tier 2 or 3 (if they're lucky enough to land a job)...and also without the debt.

[jeremydc]

Ahhh typing on my phone on the subway. I should have waited until I was on a laptop.

As an ESL teacher, you see the effects that English has on your students. The clear division among those who have been exposed to English and those from rural areas who have not. The impact that I make in the classroom is minimal. I would like to work on the policy aspect of English education abroad.

[Hikikomorist]

.

[jeremydc]

Ahhh typing on my phone on the subway. I should have waited until I was on a laptop.

As an ESL teacher, you see the effects that English has on your students. The clear division among those who have been exposed to English and those from rural areas who have not. The impact that I make in the classroom is minimal. I would like to work on the policy aspect of English education abroad.

Is getting a JD from a law school in the U.S. a good way to do that?

US is king in all aspects of higher education. A degree from some unknown tech uni in Iowa will hold more weight than a degree from a top Asian Uni like Hong Kong.

[jeremydc]

My end goal is to establish my own NGO in a foreign country.

[ManoftheHour]

Why do you think law school will help with that goal? I think you should get a PH.D. You only get a JD if you really want to be a lawyer.

[jeremydc]

Why do you think law school will help with that goal? I think you should get a PH.D. You only get a JD if you really want to be a lawyer.

Red tape. I would like to work for an already established NGO (ie UNESCO). Learn behind closed doors about globalized education policy. Use my experience to implement changes in rural English Education. Understanding what happens behind the scenes is the driving force in my decision.

Can I do this with a PhD? Sure, but I believe a JD would open more doors down the road.

[NoLongerALurker]

You're really overestimating the value of a JD with these organizations, especially when you start saying a JD from nowhere, Iowa will be worth more than a PhD from Hong Kong.

[jeremydc]

You're really overestimating the value of a JD with these organizations, especially when you start saying a JD from nowhere, Iowa will be worth more than a PhD from Hong Kong.

I meant a PhD not JD.

Maybe I am overestimating.

[ManoftheHour]

I see. I don't want to give bad advice so I won't comment on something that I'm not an expert at. What I will say is this: Have you reached out to people who are actually working in those positions about what they think? Are there people in those positions that have JDs?

[ihenry]

You're really overestimating the value of a JD with these organizations, especially when you start saying a JD from nowhere, Iowa will be worth more than a PhD from Hong Kong.

I meant a PhD not JD.

Maybe I am overestimating.

A PhD from a top 30 U.S. university in the field will carry more weight than a PhD from HKU. Below that I'm not sure and I guess it starts to depend on the field and context; if you are talking about English teaching then no doubt. A J.D from HKU/CUHK will carry less weight than T14, but generally more weight than a T2 U.S. law school because of the market competition (you will land a well paying law gig in HK more easily with a top local degree). Still, in OP's case, going to a foreign school for graduate studies is unlikely to be an option.

[worldtraveler]

You know there are international education policy programs right? I have no idea why you're looking at law school given your goals and interests.

[jeremydc]

You know there are international education policy programs right? I have no idea why you're looking at law school given your goals and interests.

I've spoken to a few JDs and they mentioned those programs are a dime a dozen. While both options will eventually lead to my end goal. I feel a JD will open more doors.

[girlrunning]

You know there are international education policy programs right? I have no idea why you're looking at law school given your goals and interests.

I've spoken to a few JDs and they mentioned those programs are a dime a dozen. While both options will eventually lead to my end goal. I feel a JD will open more doors.

You're probably better off (and more qualified?) for something like this: http://www.gse.harvard.edu/masters/iep or this: https://ed.stanford.edu/academics/maste ... /ice-ieapa.

This would actually help with your future profession and I bet the students in those programs don't lack opportunities to intern/work/extern at NGOs. Law school would not help with those goals, unless maybe you did a J.D./masters or PhD combo from a school with these programs, but again, why do that when there are perfectly tailored programs at well-respected American schools?

ETA: JDs are a dime a dozen.

[jeremydc]

You know there are international education policy programs right? I have no idea why you're looking at law school given your goals and interests.

I've spoken to a few JDs and they mentioned those programs are a dime a dozen. While both options will eventually lead to my end goal. I feel a JD will open more doors.

You're probably better off (and more qualified?) for something like this: http://www.gse.harvard.edu/masters/iep or this: https://ed.stanford.edu/academics/maste ... /ice-ieapa.

This would actually help with your future profession and I bet the students in those programs don't lack opportunities to intern/work/extern at NGOs. Law school would not help with those goals, unless maybe you did a J.D./masters or PhD combo from a school with these programs, but again, why do that when there are perfectly tailored programs at well-respected American schools?

ETA: JDs are a dime a dozen.

JDs abroad are not a dime a dozen. IN the States, sure but I don't plan on living back home for an extended period of time.

I've already completed an MA TESOL and will receive my ESL teaching license next summer.


* Thanks for the advice everyone. A PhD/JD combo sounds like a good idea. 2 birds with one expensive stone.

[heythatslife]

Your chances of getting a job doing "international law" from a T2 or TTT law school are downright minuscule. And if you want to focus on Asian Studies/Educational Policy, you should pursue a PhD in these fields. You seem to overestimate the range of opportunities a JD opens up outside of the law, especially abroad where people are unlikely to have heard of lower ranked schools. No doubt there could be some benefits, but marginal at best and hardly worth the kind of time, money, and effort law school demands.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm also not sure how a JD from an American law school will help you negotiate education policy in a foreign country. Maybe JDs aren't a dime a dozen because having one isn't very pertinent?

[jeremydc]

Appreciate all of your thoughts. I'll be applying to both Phd and law programs.

I've been in contact with JDs working with UNESCO, Teach For India, and Seoul Metropolitan Office of Education. There are some policy type jobs out there. Of course, its a niche market but I love a challenge.

[lawlorbust]

Appreciate all of your thoughts. I'll be applying to both Phd and law programs.

I've been in contact with JDs working with UNESCO, Teach For India, and Seoul Metropolitan Office of Education. There are some policy type jobs out there. Of course, its a niche market but I love a challenge.

Lol. You know the downside risk is $300,000 and 3 years wasted, right? And that is the likely outcome for Iowa law grads trying to place in, say, UNESCO?

ETA: well, $50,000, I guess. Great risk management, to limit yourself to only taking $50,000 in loans!

[jeremydc]

Debt is a major deterrent. However, teaching English (especially specialized like Business/Law) is lucrative. There are ESL positions in the Middle East that pay upwards of 100,000K a year (no taxes under 99K). I know multiple people in these positions. Sure, it's dangerous but a year or two in a compound is not a bad option.



Going back home to Hawaii may be my best option. In state, lower reqs, and an Asian focus. It seems the average debt according to USNEWS is about 50K.

After passing the bar, a year or two in the Middle East can clear things up.


If I don't get a decent scholarship somewhere, I'll probably head to the Middle East anyways and save money upfront.



**** I'm surprised teaching law abroad has never come up as a way to pay back loans.

[Hikikomorist]

.

[heythatslife]

**** I'm surprised teaching law abroad has never come up as a way to pay back loans.

You mean teaching US law at foreign schools? That is a vanishingly small niche where available positions usually go to one of many LLMs/SJDs who are equipped to provide useful comparative legal perspectives or to established practitioners who happen to be in that country. In other words, those are not jobs you're going to get as a freshly minted JD from a middling school.

[jeremydc]

Debt is a major deterrent. However, teaching English (especially specialized like Business/Law) is lucrative. There are ESL positions in the Middle East that pay upwards of 100,000K a year (no taxes under 99K). I know multiple people in these positions. Sure, it's dangerous but a year or two in a compound is not a bad option.



Going back home to Hawaii may be my best option. In state, lower reqs, and an Asian focus. It seems the average debt according to USNEWS is about 50K.

After passing the bar, a year or two in the Middle East can clear things up.


If I don't get a decent scholarship somewhere, I'll probably head to the Middle East anyways and save money upfront.



**** I'm surprised teaching law abroad has never come up as a way to pay back loans.

I'd heard it was more like $60k in the ME. Where are they paying $100k?

They are out there. They usually recruit via TESOL conferences.

[porkypig]

As someone actually living in Asia, who is working specifically with education policy in EFL (I am not a lawyer, though), I don't think you have an accurate perception of what a US law degree can get you--my American friends who work with me who are lawyers are all working on higher law degrees to be able to practice here and accepting much lower pay in the meantime.
You should get your law degree where you want to work because there are fundamental differences in the legal systems of different countries and you need to understand nuances of language for law no matter where you're practicing. Also, only top schools like Columbia and Stanford (with international name recognition) get any preferential treatment in the job market here. Some folks here don't believe University of Chicago or Penn are good schools because they haven't heard of them.
I won't say don't pursue your goals. I love my job and I'd love to be an attorney here if I felt like I could commit to staying forever! But know that you will not be working with children directly and that a lot of your perceptions of the job might not be as accurate as you think. If you get a US law degree (which you may have to) consider that you may need to get an additional degree to practice outside the US. If you get a foreign degree, you will likely need to get an LLM to work in the States.