Top Law Schools

Starting from Chicago (I have no delusions about HYS) and going on down the line, who really does place the best in D.C., not just the mid-atlantic region. And is there an appreciable difference between each school's government vs. big law/private sector placement? Lastly, are there any school's that place well in D.C. that are known for certain government jobs above others, i.e. agency/department placement? Thanks.

Doing absolutely no research on the subject I think Virginia and Georgetown are the obvious choices due to their proximity to DC.

It's hard to quantify, but firms are perfectly aware of the school rankings and what it means if you go to Columbia, say, as opposed to Georgetown. This plays out in hiring gpa ranges. But other intangibles also factor in. Being in DC gives you the leg up on networking during 1L year, and it's easier to show committed interest to the region. The single biggest difference between someplace like Georgetown and other T14 schools is the access to DC employers at OCI, where every DC firm will be looking to hire. The further afield you go, the less DC recruiting you're likely to encounter (though DC offices do hire from every T14). As I said, it's hard to quantify.

Within the DC area schools, Georgetown has a huge advantage over the other schools. GW's OCI is a bloodbath; kids do land DC firms every year, but not nearly as many as you'd hope. American and Catholic are far worse, and should not be attended in good conscience.

Bear in mind the credited advice about DC in general: in the best circumstances, with a good school and good grades, this market is and always will be a total crapshoot. Good credentials are no guarantee. Best of luck.

Current GULC student who is going to DC Biglaw: the idea that GULC has some 'advantage' to DC hiring over the other T14's is laughable (Maybe Cornell? Otherwise no.) People at GULC tend to WANT DC more, so more apply there, but NYU, Columbia, and the other T14's you might be looking at CAN place as well as or better.

Virginia places ridiculously well in DC, but assuming tuition costs work out the same, I wouldn't choose it over, say, Columbia.

Glasseyes wrote:Bear in mind the credited advice about DC in general: in the best circumstances, with a good school and good grades, this market is and always will be a total crapshoot. Good credentials are no guarantee. Best of luck.

/thread

Capitol_Idea wrote:Current GULC student who is going to DC Biglaw: the idea that GULC has some 'advantage' to DC hiring over the other T14's is laughable (Maybe Cornell? Otherwise no.) People at GULC tend to WANT DC more, so more apply there, but NYU, Columbia, and the other T14's you might be looking at CAN place as well as or better.

Yeah, I'm also at GULC and heading to DC Biglaw; I think you're a year ahead of me. I agree with you in the sense that GULC earns the distinction as the clear "14th best" of the T14, and that doesn't radically change for DC hiring. But I disagree that it's entirely as simple as that.

I don't think someone coming from Michigan, Northwestern, or Cornell has any appreciable edge over GULC in DC hiring for a number of reasons: DC firms are crawling with GULC grads, and the cycle is self-perpetuating; the ability to hustle all year within your chosen market is hugely undervalued on these boards; and for this city more than any other, the ability to spend multiple semesters working in government is also vastly undervalued if you're interested in biglaw regulatory work (which is a substantial chunk of the work in this city). That said, some firms care more about school prestige than others.

I'm an older non-trad with a weird resume, so I can't say whether a K-JD would be better off at Northwestern or GULC for DC hiring (if your school is the only remarkable thing about you, I would go to the better school, personally), but the above factors were instrumental in my OCI outcome. Of course, outside of DC the other schools obviously do better, so if having a safe backup is part of the plan, every other T14 still wins. All else being equal, go to the best option available that provides substantial scholarship money. Everything I said above is just to say that I don't think Northwestern at sticker makes sense over GULC at half-price if your only goal is DC biglaw. I think you get a more of an advantage in DC hiring once you get to the level of Duke, and even more so at UVA. Above that probably delivers even better results. Go forth and prosper.

Above median at UVA would seem to give you a shot, top quarter would seem to give you a very good shot. But the above advice regarding the difficulty of cracking DC shouldn't be understated.

I SA'd at a 'top' DC firm this summer. UVA punched above its weight for sure. GULC also did, but bear in mind what others have said--part of the GULC advantage may simply be more opportunities to hustle and network. If you're willing to go through the effort of hustling, GULC may give you more opportunities to do so. That said, if I wanted DC biglaw, I'd probably still go with UVA.

The fundamental logic flaw here is that not all schools have equal numbers of people who want DC. The fact that schools near DC place more graduates in DC does not mean that a student who wants DC is likelier to get it than if s/he went elsewhere.

Post removed.

AReasonableMan wrote:The fundamental logic flaw here is that not all schools have equal numbers of people who want DC. The fact that schools near DC place more graduates in DC does not mean that a student who wants DC is likelier to get it than if s/he went elsewhere.

It's a mixture of both though. Yes more people at these schools probably want to go to DC, but just like how Cornell/Berkley is going place better in NY/Cal, firms tend to turn to who is close. Part of that is likely because, since kids who go to LS near city X end up in city X, those kids become hiring partners who hire from the same school.

Br3v wrote:

AReasonableMan wrote:The fundamental logic flaw here is that not all schools have equal numbers of people who want DC. The fact that schools near DC place more graduates in DC does not mean that a student who wants DC is likelier to get it than if s/he went elsewhere.

It's a mixture of both though. Yes more people at these schools probably want to go to DC, but just like how Cornell/Berkley is going place better in NY/Cal, firms tend to turn to who is close. Part of that is likely because, since kids who go to LS near city X end up in city X, those kids become hiring partners who hire from the same school.

Fair point

Virginia.

Glasseyes wrote: American and Catholic are far worse, and should not be attended in good conscience.

... you should've added, "if you are a mediocre student and/or have zero personality," to the end of that sentence.

Catsinthebag wrote:

Glasseyes wrote: American and Catholic are far worse, and should not be attended in good conscience.

... you should've added, "if you are a mediocre student and/or have zero personality," to the end of that sentence.

I take your point but don't think it's accurate. A good friend of mine was top third at Catholic, very polished and put together, four or five years of desirable work experience, and even some family ties to people that matter (hey, you use what you've got). Got a couple screeners from Catholic's miserable farce of an OCI, even a couple callbacks, but no bites. His outcome was the general rule, not the exception. The only true success story I heard about from Catholic was for the kid at the literal top of his class, who landed a V5 in DC.

Virginia places most of the class in DC, but yeah, you still need top grades.

But if you look down the VLR masthead, probably 80% of them end up in DC over other markets. There's a lot of self-selection that goes on. I don't know if DC firms will dip lower in a UVA class than they would a U of Chicago or Columbia class, I just think more people at the top of the class at UVA want DC.

Do any UVA people know a single person that ended up at Cravath, for instance? Giving the option, most people with an offer at Cravath and Covington would choose the latter at UVA. I don't think that's true of most other schools.

First Offense wrote: But if you look down the VLR masthead, probably 80% of them end up in DC over other markets. There's a lot of self-selection that goes on. I don't know if DC firms will dip lower in a UVA class than they would a U of Chicago or Columbia class, I just think more people at the top of the class at UVA want DC.

Do any UVA people know a single person that ended up at Cravath, for instance? Giving the option, most people with an offer at Cravath and Covington would choose the latter at UVA. I don't think that's true of most other schools.

I know people that went with Cravath/"Elite" NYC, but you are right regarding that "top" of the class seems to prefer DC.

Though I think this is a typo:

First Offense wrote:Virginia places most of the class in DC, but yeah, you still need top grades.

Because it's either contradictory or I am just having an RC fail.

Probably could have been phrased better. Not most =51%, but most out of dc, my, cal, various, Chicago, etc. I think that's what the numbers were, but I haven't checked since I was a 0L.

First Offense wrote:Probably could have been phrased better. Not most =51%, but most out of dc, my, cal, various, Chicago, etc. I think that's what the numbers were, but I haven't checked since I was a 0L.

That DC is UVA's largest market? I agree that it feels that way but was surprised to see that technically UVA's largest market is NYC (68 grads) with DC as #2 (66 grads). Virtually the same though, as that is the difference of one person who decided to go to NY rather than DC presumably.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

Those are 2014 numbers though, and in 2013 DC outweighed NY (67 DC 62 NY) as in 2012 (80 DC 51 NY). I do not think that accurately captures the true feel though, as I imagine someone clerking in some flyover state (who would on average be going to DC afterwards if we use your assertion to assume that most people competitive for a clerkship will opt for DC) are not counted as DC in those numbers, but rather counted as New Mexico/Alabama/Virginia/Etc.

Desert Fox wrote:65 people in DC (a lot of which probably aren't big law) sorta sucks.

It's 20% of the class but yeah it's lower than I thought. I'd be willing to bet that more than half (3/4?) of the AIII clerks though (53 in 2014) will end up in DC.

But I mean, for example, less than 36 (maybe much less?) of 2014 Northwestern graduates went to DC
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... d_2014.pdf

Less than 15% at Duke went to DC in 2014
https://law.duke.edu/career/employmentdata/

Though 40% of GULC went to DC in 2014
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... d_2014.pdf

Desert Fox wrote:65 people in DC (a lot of which probably aren't big law) sorta sucks.

Eh - if they're not doing big law in DC, what are they doing? If they're going to a PD, that's probably as competitive if not moreso. Doubt they're going to DC to do shitlaw though.

Edit: Yeah, and if that doesn't count the majority of AIII clerks, the number is probably higher. Shitty thing about numbers 9 months out as opposed to 15 months or whatever.

First Offense wrote:Virginia places most of the class in DC, but yeah, you still need top grades.

But if you look down the VLR masthead, probably 80% of them end up in DC over other markets. There's a lot of self-selection that goes on. I don't know if DC firms will dip lower in a UVA class than they would a U of Chicago or Columbia class, I just think more people at the top of the class at UVA want DC.

Do any UVA people know a single person that ended up at Cravath, for instance? Giving the option, most people with an offer at Cravath and Covington would choose the latter at UVA. I don't think that's true of most other schools.

Unless the city is a deal breaker, almost all the people I know at my lower T14 would choose Covington over the Cravath/Elite NYC Firms as well. One, it seems like it's just easier to get Cravath than some of these elite DC places like Covington. What I'm wondering is whether this is a shift or this has always been the case? I went through 1L thinking Cravath/Elite NYC firms were the be-all and end-all. Now, I realize that W&C and Covington ended up being the most competitive...by far.

Though, this is probably better placed in the legal employment section.