Top Law Schools

PLEASE listen to the advise on these boards, the people giving you advise are actually in/have gone through law school and know what they are talking about. I started at a strong regional with a decent scholly this fall but now really really really wish i had studied harder for the lsat and was going to a better school. Once you start you will realize that most people in your class are as determined, if not more, than you to be at the top of the class and put in as much, if not more, effort as you. You HAVE to assume you'll be around median wherever you go as there isn't really much you can do to guarantee you'll be at the top of your class. You will realize this when you start school. It's a hell of a lot easier to score a couple points higher on the lsat and go to a better school then finishing at the top of your class in law school. I'm three weeks in and really regret not taking the advise on these boards more seriously. So PLEASE do yourselves a favor and score as high as you possibly can on the lsat before you decide to enter school. Why? The school you go to plays a huge role in what kind of job opportunities are available to you. Enough has been mentioned on these boards about big law and you should be well aware that outside the T15 your chances of getting big law are virtually non-existent. I am talking about working at a small/mid-sized firm, DA/PD office, public interest, any sort of government job, in house for a corp, ect. The better your school, the better your options. Don't start out at a disadvantage by going to a lesser school. Again, it's a lot easier to do better on the lsat and go to a better school than to do really well and finish at the top of your class in law school. That's it

If you really are having regret, you could always drop out now while it's early, retake the LSAT, and reapply

hairbear7 wrote:If you really are having regret, you could always drop out now while it's early, retake the LSAT, and reapply

Can you actually do that?

OP isn't saying anything new. So if 0Ls won't listen to other threads why would they listen to this one?

stego wrote:

hairbear7 wrote:If you really are having regret, you could always drop out now while it's early, retake the LSAT, and reapply

Can you actually do that?

OP isn't saying anything new. So if 0Ls won't listen to other threads why would they listen to this one?

Cuz maybe they'll see this one? I've been around here a long time and found this one of the more compelling posts actually...

if you went to a strong regional on a full ride that could still be a better decision than loaning a lot of money from the gov't to go a more national school. of course, you can't guarantee landing in the top of your class from any school, but at the same time, drowning yourself in debt to attend a school you perceive as "better" can be just as dangerous.

the credited advise is to retake the LSAT until you've achieved a comfortable debt-to-placement ratio for whatever legal and geographic market you're interested in.

jbagelboy wrote:if you went to a strong regional on a full ride that could still be a better decision than loaning a lot of money from the gov't to go a more national school. of course, you can't guarantee landing in the top of your class from any school, but at the same time, drowning yourself in debt to attend a school you perceive as "better" can be just as dangerous.

the credited advise is to retake the LSAT until you've achieved a comfortable debt-to-placement ratio for whatever legal and geographic market you're interested in.

Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

Post removed.

benwyatt wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote: Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

No.

So the incentives are prestige and a much better chance at a great job. So, even at a T-14 school I still have to make sure I get enough scholarships to make my debt manageable.

Clearly wrote:

stego wrote:

hairbear7 wrote:If you really are having regret, you could always drop out now while it's early, retake the LSAT, and reapply

Can you actually do that?

OP isn't saying anything new. So if 0Ls won't listen to other threads why would they listen to this one?

Cuz maybe they'll see this one? I've been around here a long time and found this one of the more compelling posts actually...

Really? I found it too jumbled to bother reading, especially with all the advise nonsense.

lillawyer2 wrote:

benwyatt wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote: Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

No.

So the incentives are prestige and a much better chance at a great job. So, even at a T-14 school I still have to make sure I get enough scholarships to make my debt manageable.

That and the lack of debt will make your life infinitely better post-graduation. I see random teachers and people without law degrees win $20,000 on the price is right sometimes and they go nuts. With T14 sticker debt, it would probably be just enough to cover interest for that year.

lillawyer2 wrote:Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

lillawyer2 wrote:So, even at a T-14 school I still have to make sure I get enough scholarships to make my debt manageable.

Correct.

Effingham wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:

benwyatt wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote: Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

No.

So the incentives are prestige and a much better chance at a great job. So, even at a T-14 school I still have to make sure I get enough scholarships to make my debt manageable.

That and the lack of debt will make your life infinitely better post-graduation. I see random teachers and people without law degrees win $20,000 on the price is right sometimes and they go nuts. With T14 sticker debt, it would probably be just enough to cover interest for that year.

Not to get side tracked, but $20k isn't a lot of money at all. When I see people on the family feud happy winning $10k, I'm confused. It's only $2k per person. I figure its more the thrill of winning than it is the actual prize.

stego wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

Traynor Brah wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:So, even at a T-14 school I still have to make sure I get enough scholarships to make my debt manageable.

Correct.

Thank the Heavens that I am going to have all my undergraduate debt paid off before I start LS. There is no worse debt than student loan debt.

lillawyer2 wrote:Not to get side tracked, but $20k isn't a lot of money at all. When I see people on the family feud happy winning $10k, I'm confused. It's only $2k per person. I figure its more the thrill of winning than it is the actual prize.

I'd be pretty fucking happy if someone handed me $2000, let alone $10k or $20k.

Post removed.

lillawyer2 wrote:I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No, they are better, but still not a guarantee. Columbia in 2014: 369 out of 455. That's like 81%. NYU and Cornell are probably similar. I'm not going to look them up, because this data is all publicly available.

lillawyer2 wrote:

stego wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:Not to get side tracked, but $20k isn't a lot of money at all. When I see people on the family feud happy winning $10k, I'm confused. It's only $2k per person. I figure its more the thrill of winning than it is the actual prize.

I'd be pretty fucking happy if someone handed me $2000, let alone $10k or $20k.

yea...yea...yea... yall are right. I work pt as a hostess in addition to my other job and I'm happy to get $1 tip to put in my savings lol. I need to bring myself down a few pegs... eating large slice of humble pie

No one is paying off 300k of government loans in 5-6 years of big law

jbagelboy wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:

stego wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.

Thanks! I plan to get into Columbia. I will kill my student loan debt undergrad by August. I will stay at home in my nyc apt. My father will foot the bill (cross fingers). I want at least a partial merit skolly. I'm going to work my ass off to get it. If I get no skolly my mom will help me with the cost and the rest will be loans. I WILL not attend law school if my end debt amounts to over 50k! I'm thrifty enough now. I scrap every penny and will continue to do so to meet these financial goals.

I thought even about risking my health and working in a smoking bar as a waitress bc they make close to 4k per week. It's so tempting, especially with how expensive nyc is and law school is.

Also why are some forced to leave their big law job?

lillawyer2 wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:

stego wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.

Thanks! I plan to get into Columbia. I will kill my student loan debt undergrad by August. I will stay at home in my nyc apt. My father will foot the bill (cross fingers). I want at least a partial merit skolly. I'm going to work my ass off to get it. If I get no skolly my mom will help me with the cost and the rest will be loans. I WILL not attend law school if my end debt amounts to over 50k! I'm thrifty enough now. I scrap every penny and will continue to do so to meet these financial goals.

I thought even about risking my health and working in a smoking bar as a waitress bc they make close to 4k per week. It's so tempting, especially with how expensive nyc is and law school is.

Also why are some forced to leave their big law job?

If you actually think you can make 4k a week waiting tables you go do that. I don't care if they're smoking meth in your face.

Clearly wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:

stego wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.

Thanks! I plan to get into Columbia. I will kill my student loan debt undergrad by August. I will stay at home in my nyc apt. My father will foot the bill (cross fingers). I want at least a partial merit skolly. I'm going to work my ass off to get it. If I get no skolly my mom will help me with the cost and the rest will be loans. I WILL not attend law school if my end debt amounts to over 50k! I'm thrifty enough now. I scrap every penny and will continue to do so to meet these financial goals.

I thought even about risking my health and working in a smoking bar as a waitress bc they make close to 4k per week. It's so tempting, especially with how expensive nyc is and law school is.

Also why are some forced to leave their big law job?

If you actually think you can make 4k a week waiting tables you go do that. I don't care if they're smoking meth in your face.

yea its cocktail waitress. it is in a fancy area of manhattan. its cigar smoking. its very bad for your health, I'm sure you know second hand smoke is a thing

Clearly wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:

stego wrote:

lillawyer2 wrote:Isn't one almost guaranteed a big law job out of a T-14 or a 100k salary? If not almost guaranteed, the option is there.

If you don't land biglaw you are very, very, unlikely to get a 100k salary from any legal job, especially straight out of law school. Have you heard of the bimodal salary distribution for lawyers?

The big law (100+ attorney-firm) + federal clerkship number for GULC in 2014 is 303, out of 589 (GULC has huge classes). That's about 51%, so closer to a coin-flip chance than a guarantee. I'm sure not everyone who went to GULC wanted biglaw, but it's still far from a guarantee.

I'm aiming for Columbia/NYU/Cornell are the odds still 50/50?

No. Your odds out of Columbia and NYU are closer to 90%, and Cornell closer to 80%, but a lot of variables are in play. The bigger point is that having a high salary doesn't mean very much when you're burdened with way higher debt, and that often the debt can be way more constricting than the marginal opportunities you receive going to a "better" program.

A graduating student from a T6 school who borrows to pay tuition and living costs will run themselves upwards of $300,000 in debt, which will take five or six years to pay off while living a religiously abstinent lifestyle. At a large firm, which is the median outcome from many T14 schools, you'll work 80-100 hours per week and most of your after-tax paycheck will go to rent and loan payments, so you won't enjoy the fruits of those labors. By your fourth or fifth year, if you survive that far emotionally, physically, and financially, before you've even finished paying off your debt, more likely than not you'll be forced to leave your firm and take a much lower paying position in the private or public sector, while still finishing your debt payments. By the time you've paid off all your debt, you'll have saved less and make less than someone who went to a strong regional school for free and took a lower paying entry salary, or better yet, who didn't go to law school at all.

The alternative is you default on your student loans, which many Americans face today, and move back home with your parents.

Thanks! I plan to get into Columbia. I will kill my student loan debt undergrad by August. I will stay at home in my nyc apt. My father will foot the bill (cross fingers). I want at least a partial merit skolly. I'm going to work my ass off to get it. If I get no skolly my mom will help me with the cost and the rest will be loans. I WILL not attend law school if my end debt amounts to over 50k! I'm thrifty enough now. I scrap every penny and will continue to do so to meet these financial goals.

I thought even about risking my health and working in a smoking bar as a waitress bc they make close to 4k per week. It's so tempting, especially with how expensive nyc is and law school is.

Also why are some forced to leave their big law job?

If you actually think you can make 4k a week waiting tables you go do that. I don't care if they're smoking meth in your face.

It's not an accurate figure. Waitressing wages/tips are criminally overestimated in manhattan, I don't know why. You might make $4k one week during a hot season, when you have a lot of shifts, and you get really lucky. It averages out to lot less than that year round.