Dear O'Ls Forum

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AReasonableMan

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by AReasonableMan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:16 pm

stego wrote:
hairbear7 wrote:If you really are having regret, you could always drop out now while it's early, retake the LSAT, and reapply
Can you actually do that?

OP isn't saying anything new. So if 0Ls won't listen to other threads why would they listen to this one?
If anecdotal data had no value then the only witnesses in mass tort cases would be experts to cite statistics. However, most people find first hand witness testimony to be compelling.

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by Paul Campos » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:33 pm

The law schools aren't lying to you. All the chips are on the table.
Something seems to be missing from this analysis.

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Clearly

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by Clearly » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:24 pm

Hang on, do I have an 0L telling me about law school and the profession?

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Clearly

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by Clearly » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:27 pm

lillawyer2 wrote:
Clearly wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:
Attax wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote: Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.
Having an interest in a field doesn't necessarily make it fulfilling. Searching for complete satisfaction in your life via your employment will leave you always lacking. But at least outside of law, you have time to do things other than merely work. You may have a "strong interest," I know I did when I entered law school, but I'm way more fulfilled in my career after dropping out because it put me in a position where I have both the time and financial resources to pursue what really does make my life fulfilling.

I think there are plenty of people telling you why you shouldn't be eating those cheeseburgers: huge amounts of debt, horrible work life balance, little to no control over your own life. If that sounds fulfilling, then go ahead. If not, drop out of the law school rat race while you're ahead.

I don't know any job where if you recieve 100k+ your work life balance doesn't suck. At my finance firm, people only make 80k and are working forever. Their work life balance is shit. Public ACCOUNTING FIRMS WILL pay you 70k and steal your soul. No company will pay you a certain amount and not have you work for that amount. In America, our work life balance is that we live to work and not work to live. It's a horrible condition to have created, but it's how it works. The more money one makes in America, the more they are responsible for and the more time they are required to be devoted to work.

So yes, lawyers may have to drudge through lots of work and the work may be boring, but shit most careers are and the careers that give a lot of money require you to work your ass off.

If I wanted to make an OK salary and have a great work life balance, I would have became a teacher and be content with my 70k at 45 years old. I know I'll never break 100k until I get tenure and been at the same school for 15+ years.

When someone wants a career in law, medicine, accounting, technology and etc..they knwo their work balance life will suck. So really it doesn't add anything to the conversation. Lol no one Denies work life balance is poor and it isn't really a huge deterring factor.
The problem is the price of entry is so high that it's not worth it. You take 300k in loans to make 100k after taxes to live on 50k a year and put 50k a year into student loans for 8 years just to break even, meanwhile it's rare people even survive that long in big law...

Clearly who is doing this? I mean let's think about it clearly. No one takes 300k out of debt, unless (key word here) bobby's little squirrel upstairs had a stroke while turning the wheel at the unfortunate time when poor bobby was filling out financial aid. I mean seriously. If we think about it, those who take out 300k have to know that they will be slaving away for years to pay it off. No one takes out that much money and isnt a slave to their job. Doctors with their guaranteed high salary after they pass all their rigorous testing and schooling pay out and gruel for a long time. The good thing about law school is that YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SUFFER we choose to suffer. So it isn't the profession that is the problem, it is the people that go into it. Bobby chose to take out 300k in loans, when he could have retook for a better score or went to a regional school that gave him more money.

The price of entry is high for all graduate schooling. In this era, nothing is for free. Everything cost top dollar. You want a prestigious profession? You have to pay the prestigious price for it or work hard to be determined worthy of paying less. No one is going to hand you something without busting your balls first. There are ways to beat the system, whose fault is it if bobby doesn't beat it and take home the gold? It's bobbys and no one else's. The law schools aren't lying to you. All the chips are on the table. It's up to you. Anyone with eyes and basic research skills can weigh their pros and cons before taking that jump. I sure as hell did. I used this site, and others to gauge if I was making the right decision....I molded the advice to fit my situation.

So if bobby thought it was worth it takiing out 300k for his 100k job then he has to live with it and it isn't the law schools fault. It isn't the professions fault. It's only bobbys fault and hopefully bobby will take it in stride and has a good plan to make the best of his situation.

There are many people who go to law school with loans under 100k. Your scenario seems kind of extreme and if most people on this board follow the tls advice then they should be doing pretty well for themselves. The legal profession isn't going anywhere. The prestige of having a law degree from a t14 has not gone away. The money hasn't gone away. Lawyers with sense will always make money. Everyone needs a lawyer. Have some hustle about you. The legal career as a lawyer is an insurance policy career which means that if you lose your job and have some sense and hustle you can go out and make money on your own without an employer. I STAND BY THIS 100%. Someone with a profession not just a career but a profession and can't make decent money And thrive (not every lawyer will make 100k+, but thrive enough to have a good home life and able to be financially stable) needs to not to be quick and reevaluate the profession and place blame there but themselves and the better choices they could have made. People always quick to blame someone else or another entity for problems that could have been avoided if they made wiser choices.

As I wrote before, unless your rich or have well established connects, you have to bust your balls to be successful. In every career no one is going to pay you well for easy street. If you do coding you have to work equally as hard to be successful as you do for being a lawyer. Maybe there are more jobs, but there are also a lot of people in technology, people who have been doing it since they were 5. People with an iq that puts yours to shame, people with impressive reusmes...etc You have to learn different skills, go back to school, use a different part of your brain and hustle in a different community, but your still busting your balls. It would be the same if I dropped everything and tried accounting, which is boring as hell, and you bust your balls for 80k and still have to get licensing and past tests to get more money, so like law school you have to work very hard to reach a certain status.

Let's try to agree on one thing, when choosing a law school think about how well you are able to work smart and hard. There needs to be a balance, so while your young and your eagar to get your career started, pump your breaks and make sure that the law school you chose will provide the best and easiest way to work smart (ie. Career choices, particular location you want, firms you want and slaty your comfortable with and a ls debt you can manage) and hard (strategic and efficient method toward working to pay loans, career advancement, budget managing) I feel early in anyone's careeer work life balance is hard to achieve perfectly or even decently early on in life but if you work smart and hard you will essentially minimize the imbalance in your work life balance and hopefully it will be a quicker transition to a better balance.

Sorry for the grammar errors I'm on my phone and trying to type this quickly.
...are you on drugs?

lillawyer2

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by lillawyer2 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:28 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:Tls has been such a great place for me to learn about the profession and the options available. However the negativity against Law schools and law in general is rather disheartening and odd for a board that aims to help people achieve their goals. I got nothing but love for this place <3 !!
I get your overall point, but it's worth considering what it says about a profession that so many people here are negative about it. You can chalk that up to the people are posting here, possibly, but there's a lot of non-TLS evidence that lawyers are miserable, and apparently uniquely miserable (stats about depression, alcohol/substance abuse etc.).

That's not saying you shouldn't go into law, but it's just something to keep in mind when evaluating people's advice/comments here. As the OP suggests, it can be hard to know what you're getting into (emotionally, even if the info is all there) until you're in it, so the cynics are just trying to pass on information they believe is important.
Yes, but I cannot utilize that advice bc there are so many reasons other than the profession as to why someone is negative about it. Is it the profession or is it s bunch of things combined together. Is it really the debt that someone has acquired that's bumbling them out with school, is it their schools prospects, is it that they went to law school for the wrong reasons (we have a lot of those), is it that this was their get rich scheme when their art history degree and "original" paintings didn't get them the nyc gallery they wanted, it really could be anything.

As I wrote before, people tend to blame things on others or some entity that can't defend itself for reasons their life or situation isn't the roses that they felt their owed. I'm not heard or that.

Law school isn't perfect. I'm someone who believes that the whole system of schooling needs to change. I don't think it should take 3 years, but I'm not naive. I know that for the most part getting something like a law degree is worth fighting for, if it's the career you want. Most medical students are cynical about med school and residency and medicine in general. I think medical school takes the cake for most miserable people in one concentrated area. I've been around both law students and medical students a lot and I think for law students it's more the person and less the institution that is the source of their misery. Most law students that I've encountered that were miserable are in the profession for the wrong reasons. They fell back on law as their back up when they didn't know what to do with their lives and law wasn't thier passion but get rich quick scheme and it back fired. Not everyone is cut out for law and not everyone can do law school. Unlike med school there is no weeding out process for law school. You take one test and your eligible for acceptance. Med school it is years of are you sure you want to do this. Years of exposure to similar classes, and similar subjects. A lot of current and past law school students didn't do their due diligence when choosing the career and this lead to their misery and not the profession itself.

I know of a lot of people who are happy lawyers, you may have to look harder for them but they are there. Negative Nancy's always like to announce themselves and make it known they are miserable, as evidence on this website and in real life. While lawyers who are happy are too busy enjoying their careers and life to burden others with negativity. It's the way life goes in general, so while I do hear the people who are miserable. I tend to look at thier advice in an objective manner and request to hear a full story instead of just accepting: law school sucks don't do it, when in reality it's probably more so that the person sucks and wasn't cut out for law then it is the profession. Usually the ones who are short and say DONT DO LAW DO CODING OR LAW IS A TERRIBLE CAREER usuauy fall into that category. I don't have time for that negativity. It's unnecessary and useless in a conversation when it isn't elaborated on bc the person who is writing the negativity usually knows that if they elaborate the others will find out that it's less with the profession and more with that person there lies the issues

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lillawyer2

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by lillawyer2 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:31 pm

Clearly wrote:Hang on, do I have an 0L telling me about law school and the profession?
No you don't. I don't think your reading skills are fundamentally working. You gave me an extreme example that made no sense as the majority of people shouldn't take out that loan amount in ANY situation. So I told you same.

The only comment I made about the profession is that if you can't make it and live decently with a professional degree then maybe it's less to do with the profession and more to do with the person, because clearly in any career you have to hustle. Sorry if things weren't exactly like the brochure but you kind of have to expect that.

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by lillawyer2 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:38 pm

Clearly wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:
Clearly wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:
Attax wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote: Have you failed to consider that the other jobs that also make as much money would not be more fulfilling, because a) those individuals don't pose a strong interest in those fields and b) the discussion is about law school.

It's like someone saying how do I go about making and continuously having a satisfying breakfast? and someone responds eat lunch.

You have a respectable job, but yet you make it seem that no one else will have that, most people will be unhappy or your respectable job is still shit without providing a basis for this understanding. I mean it's like saying don't eat cheeseburgers, but you sit in my face and eat one and won't tell me why I shouldn't be eating one.
Having an interest in a field doesn't necessarily make it fulfilling. Searching for complete satisfaction in your life via your employment will leave you always lacking. But at least outside of law, you have time to do things other than merely work. You may have a "strong interest," I know I did when I entered law school, but I'm way more fulfilled in my career after dropping out because it put me in a position where I have both the time and financial resources to pursue what really does make my life fulfilling.

I think there are plenty of people telling you why you shouldn't be eating those cheeseburgers: huge amounts of debt, horrible work life balance, little to no control over your own life. If that sounds fulfilling, then go ahead. If not, drop out of the law school rat race while you're ahead.

I don't know any job where if you recieve 100k+ your work life balance doesn't suck. At my finance firm, people only make 80k and are working forever. Their work life balance is shit. Public ACCOUNTING FIRMS WILL pay you 70k and steal your soul. No company will pay you a certain amount and not have you work for that amount. In America, our work life balance is that we live to work and not work to live. It's a horrible condition to have created, but it's how it works. The more money one makes in America, the more they are responsible for and the more time they are required to be devoted to work.

So yes, lawyers may have to drudge through lots of work and the work may be boring, but shit most careers are and the careers that give a lot of money require you to work your ass off.

If I wanted to make an OK salary and have a great work life balance, I would have became a teacher and be content with my 70k at 45 years old. I know I'll never break 100k until I get tenure and been at the same school for 15+ years.

When someone wants a career in law, medicine, accounting, technology and etc..they knwo their work balance life will suck. So really it doesn't add anything to the conversation. Lol no one Denies work life balance is poor and it isn't really a huge deterring factor.
The problem is the price of entry is so high that it's not worth it. You take 300k in loans to make 100k after taxes to live on 50k a year and put 50k a year into student loans for 8 years just to break even, meanwhile it's rare people even survive that long in big law...

Clearly who is doing this? I mean let's think about it clearly. No one takes 300k out of debt, unless (key word here) bobby's little squirrel upstairs had a stroke while turning the wheel at the unfortunate time when poor bobby was filling out financial aid. I mean seriously. If we think about it, those who take out 300k have to know that they will be slaving away for years to pay it off. No one takes out that much money and isnt a slave to their job. Doctors with their guaranteed high salary after they pass all their rigorous testing and schooling pay out and gruel for a long time. The good thing about law school is that YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SUFFER we choose to suffer. So it isn't the profession that is the problem, it is the people that go into it. Bobby chose to take out 300k in loans, when he could have retook for a better score or went to a regional school that gave him more money.

The price of entry is high for all graduate schooling. In this era, nothing is for free. Everything cost top dollar. You want a prestigious profession? You have to pay the prestigious price for it or work hard to be determined worthy of paying less. No one is going to hand you something without busting your balls first. There are ways to beat the system, whose fault is it if bobby doesn't beat it and take home the gold? It's bobbys and no one else's. The law schools aren't lying to you. All the chips are on the table. It's up to you. Anyone with eyes and basic research skills can weigh their pros and cons before taking that jump. I sure as hell did. I used this site, and others to gauge if I was making the right decision....I molded the advice to fit my situation.

So if bobby thought it was worth it takiing out 300k for his 100k job then he has to live with it and it isn't the law schools fault. It isn't the professions fault. It's only bobbys fault and hopefully bobby will take it in stride and has a good plan to make the best of his situation.

There are many people who go to law school with loans under 100k. Your scenario seems kind of extreme and if most people on this board follow the tls advice then they should be doing pretty well for themselves. The legal profession isn't going anywhere. The prestige of having a law degree from a t14 has not gone away. The money hasn't gone away. Lawyers with sense will always make money. Everyone needs a lawyer. Have some hustle about you. The legal career as a lawyer is an insurance policy career which means that if you lose your job and have some sense and hustle you can go out and make money on your own without an employer. I STAND BY THIS 100%. Someone with a profession not just a career but a profession and can't make decent money And thrive (not every lawyer will make 100k+, but thrive enough to have a good home life and able to be financially stable) needs to not to be quick and reevaluate the profession and place blame there but themselves and the better choices they could have made. People always quick to blame someone else or another entity for problems that could have been avoided if they made wiser choices.

As I wrote before, unless your rich or have well established connects, you have to bust your balls to be successful. In every career no one is going to pay you well for easy street. If you do coding you have to work equally as hard to be successful as you do for being a lawyer. Maybe there are more jobs, but there are also a lot of people in technology, people who have been doing it since they were 5. People with an iq that puts yours to shame, people with impressive reusmes...etc You have to learn different skills, go back to school, use a different part of your brain and hustle in a different community, but your still busting your balls. It would be the same if I dropped everything and tried accounting, which is boring as hell, and you bust your balls for 80k and still have to get licensing and past tests to get more money, so like law school you have to work very hard to reach a certain status.

Let's try to agree on one thing, when choosing a law school think about how well you are able to work smart and hard. There needs to be a balance, so while your young and your eagar to get your career started, pump your breaks and make sure that the law school you chose will provide the best and easiest way to work smart (ie. Career choices, particular location you want, firms you want and slaty your comfortable with and a ls debt you can manage) and hard (strategic and efficient method toward working to pay loans, career advancement, budget managing) I feel early in anyone's careeer work life balance is hard to achieve perfectly or even decently early on in life but if you work smart and hard you will essentially minimize the imbalance in your work life balance and hopefully it will be a quicker transition to a better balance.

Sorry for the grammar errors I'm on my phone and trying to type this quickly.
...are you on drugs?
Clearly it must be some good ass drugs (or bad drugs and your point was still easy to refute, because it was legit extreme and rather wholly unnecessary) if I was easily and clearly able to refute your nonsense attempt to justify the extreme negativity on this board that isn't Necessary. People want advice on a profession that they chose not a huge toilet flush on their hopes and dreams issuing examples that are piss poor. How about this, give me some examples of unsuccessful lawyers or law school students who did well on the LSAT and got decent scholarships. Give me horror stories about people who do their due diligence and listen to the advice of tls? I mean because law school and lawyers sounds like a good career when you go about it the right way like ANY CAREER. Anyway I need those horror stories, bc taking out 300k loans doesn't apply to me, because I'm not an idiot thag takes out 300k in loans. I'm the "idiot" that is minimizing my debt, bulking my savings, busting my ass for the high lsat score and minimizing my coat of attendance for law school any way I can... Come on clearly give me something that I can work with something that will make u make sense

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by PeanutsNJam » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:55 pm

eagle2a wrote:Enough has been mentioned on these boards about big law and you should be well aware that outside the T15 your chances of getting big law are virtually non-existent.
Unless your "strong regional" is Minn, this is not true. Sure, 30-40% isn't a great number, and it means that at median getting biglaw would be hard, but that is hardly "virtually non-existent". Factor in some self-selection and it's even further removed from "virtually non-existent".
Last edited by PeanutsNJam on Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Clearly

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by Clearly » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:10 pm

1) a majority of law students are at or near sticker. Tls advice on not doing this is so common precisely because lots of students still take out too much debt. Your assertion that this doesn't happen is silly.

2) I came to law school after a decade in tech, the two are NOT comparable.

3) if you can go to Columbia and take out 50k in debt, great, that'd be fantastic, neither I nor anyone else would talk you out of that. You should prob take the LSAT first.

4) listen to people who have done what you want to do. People here work in big law, you haven't attended law school. Your questions in this thread indicate that you don't yet know what big law is about, the demands of the career, what up or out means etc. That's cool, no one comes here knowing these things already, but you'll get more out of this experience if you ask questions and listen instead of asserting what a profession is like to a board full of people who have lived it. This talk about a profession instead of a job ignores the data about small firm income and solo firm failure rates. Seriously your view of what a legal education can do is simply wrong.

5) my drugs comment was directed at Bobby's little squirrel. You didn't refute my argument at all by the way, you side stepped it. I wasn't addressing you. You made a blanket statement about law as a profession and how viable it is, how similar it is to other professions. I pointed out that the cost of entry is too high to be a golden ticket. You then said that doesn't apply to you, only idiots. That doesn't change the fact that the cost of entry to this field is too high.

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by AReasonableMan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:13 pm

lillawyer2 wrote:
Clearly wrote:Hang on, do I have an 0L telling me about law school and the profession?
No you don't. I don't think your reading skills are fundamentally working. You gave me an extreme example that made no sense as the majority of people shouldn't take out that loan amount in ANY situation. So I told you same.

The only comment I made about the profession is that if you can't make it and live decently with a professional degree then maybe it's less to do with the profession and more to do with the person, because clearly in any career you have to hustle. Sorry if things weren't exactly like the brochure but you kind of have to expect that.
You're assuming that failing is a result of lacking hustle, which is a reasonable assumption to make if you're an outsider, but is not the reality. Also, the poster you're speaking about did exceptionally well for themselves, but is concerned about others. This is the character trait referred to as empathy.

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by stego » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:21 pm

Clearly wrote:what up or out means etc.
What do up and out mean?

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by lillawyer2 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:34 pm

Clearly wrote:1) a majority of law students are at or near sticker. Tls advice on not doing this is so common precisely because lots of students still take out too much debt. Your assertion that this doesn't happen is silly.

2) I came to law school after a decade in tech, the two are NOT comparable.

3) if you can go to Columbia and take out 50k in debt, great, that'd be fantastic, neither I nor anyone else would talk you out of that. You should prob take the LSAT first.

4) listen to people who have done what you want to do. People here work in big law, you haven't attended law school. Your questions in this thread indicate that you don't yet know what big law is about, the demands of the career, what up or out means etc. That's cool, no one comes here knowing these things already, but you'll get more out of this experience if you ask questions and listen instead of asserting what a profession is like to a board full of people who have lived it. This talk about a profession instead of a job ignores the data about small firm income and solo firm failure rates. Seriously your view of what a legal education can do is simply wrong.

5) my drugs comment was directed at Bobby's little squirrel. You didn't refute my argument at all by the way, you side stepped it. I wasn't addressing you. You made a blanket statement about law as a profession and how viable it is, how similar it is to other professions. I pointed out that the cost of entry is too high to be a golden ticket. You then said that doesn't apply to you, only idiots. That doesn't change the fact that the cost of entry to this field is too high.
I think we are missing each other here. Yes, the cost is too high, but it's not like other options aren't equally as risky, is what my point is trying to boil down to. I mentioned bobby as a random person example.

So someone who wants to go to law school reads tls. They read the comments that don't do law school do coding or something equally similar. I don't think people realize the detriment of that advice. Usually people going to law school didn't take many tech classes or are tech savy so the work out put may be equivalent or worse than just going to law school. I know as soemone who took the necessary science and math classes would have to go back to school to meet the requirements and then go back to school again to get the degree necessary to pursue tech or medical. This also puts me at a lot of debt and far behind my competitors. So if someone has an interest in law, it's best that this is the career they want and are willing to fight for. Im sure if they are thinking about attending law school there heart is there as opposed to tech or med. That kind of advice is sour and not helpful to many students IMO. There are informative ways to help them on the right path other than pure discouragement. This was my point. You replied to me saying that the cost of attendance is too high for law school and that's usually where the advice comes from to do something else. My point is okay but the cost of attendance for college in general and especially graduate school is high. Your always going to have to put out some way some how through work, money or both. So you have to be smart about it. Your example of 300k loans is horrible and extreme, just because people find themselves in that situation doesn't mean it's still not extreme and terrible. No one under any circumstances should take out that much and they refused to utilize their options. They probably could have taken the test again to get better skolly or went to a regional school that cost less. They did not do their due diligence. So it's less the schools fault and more of the individuals choices.

So in that sense I'm refuting your argument by saying less blame on the legal profession (in this sense) and more on the individual with the 300k debt. The chips are on the table...nothing is hidden anymore any thing can be uncovered through research. So if you don't all your homework and still take out 300k either it will pay off in the end or your little squirrel died spinning mid wheel while you were working on financil aid apps

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:41 pm

lillawyer2 wrote:Yes, but I cannot utilize that advice bc there are so many reasons other than the profession as to why someone is negative about it. Is it the profession or is it s bunch of things combined together. Is it really the debt that someone has acquired that's bumbling them out with school, is it their schools prospects, is it that they went to law school for the wrong reasons (we have a lot of those), is it that this was their get rich scheme when their art history degree and "original" paintings didn't get them the nyc gallery they wanted, it really could be anything.
This is why people share their experiences here, because no one approaches the profession in a vacuum - everyone in influenced by external factors, including you. The thing this, there are a lot of people who come here who *do* want to go to law school for the wrong reasons - the whole point of being negative/cynical/whatever you want to call it is to reach the people who show up here, not just to reach some hypothetical perfectly informed applicant who is perfectly suited for law. Even if the people who have problems with law/are warning people away from law have themselves to blame, not the profession (which I don't actually agree is as much the case as you seem to believe it is), the whole point is that many of the people who come here may share those exact same reasons why law doesn't work for someone. The person saying DON'T DO IT GO INTO CODING DO ANYTHING ELSE etc. may in fact share a lot of characteristics with someone who shows up considering law school, and can provide decent information about why someone who didn't know what else to do with their degree/thought law would be something it isn't shouldn't go into the field.

I agree that there are happy lawyers (I am a happy lawyer, generally, though there are definitely tough things about the profession). But I don't think that means everyone who's unhappy with law is unhappy because of their own issues. Law is also a huge umbrella - my job is ENTIRELY unlike biglaw - so there are lots of ways the people can be happy/unhappy with it.

(I agree that people should do their due diligence and not take out $300K in loans... but that law school costs $300k to begin with is fucking INSANE and I think it's appropriate to talk about that, and make sure people are aware, and not just jettison people who didn't do their due diligence, or who did their due diligence and nonetheless believed, before going through it, that an investment of $300k in YHSCCN would pay off.)

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lillawyer2

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by lillawyer2 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:42 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:
Clearly wrote:Hang on, do I have an 0L telling me about law school and the profession?
No you don't. I don't think your reading skills are fundamentally working. You gave me an extreme example that made no sense as the majority of people shouldn't take out that loan amount in ANY situation. So I told you same.

The only comment I made about the profession is that if you can't make it and live decently with a professional degree then maybe it's less to do with the profession and more to do with the person, because clearly in any career you have to hustle. Sorry if things weren't exactly like the brochure but you kind of have to expect that.
You're assuming that failing is a result of lacking hustle, which is a reasonable assumption to make if you're an outsider, but is not the reality. Also, the poster you're speaking about did exceptionally well for themselves, but is concerned about others. This is the character trait referred to as empathy.
No I'm not. A big part of being successful (in my eyes) in a career is how well you can navigate your field. So I'm saying that I cannot look at all the complaints with equal value. It could be several factors that cause the failing or lack of career for lawyers, I used hustle as one of them, but should I assume that it's is the profession that is the problem or that there maybe other cause and effect issues. Maybe you aren't a very good lawyer, maybe life has thrown too much at you, maybe you didn't go to a good enough school to land the job you needed/wanted, maybe debt is too crippling to get your feet to land where they want. I find it hard to blame a profession for the problems people face when the profession can't hide much from you. i know people who went to t3 who didn't land the big law job but hustle their ass in side legal work and make bank. I also know t3 graduates struggling to find work with a woe is me attitude.

I know what the op was suing and I agree with him. Listen to the advice of tls people it's good advice it WILL SAVE you a lot of heart ache and problems. So how bad can law school profession be, If you go about it the right way or the best way possible? This is my question since many posters love to make the legal profession seem like an all around nightmare that should be avoided like the plague.

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by lillawyer2 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:51 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:Yes, but I cannot utilize that advice bc there are so many reasons other than the profession as to why someone is negative about it. Is it the profession or is it s bunch of things combined together. Is it really the debt that someone has acquired that's bumbling them out with school, is it their schools prospects, is it that they went to law school for the wrong reasons (we have a lot of those), is it that this was their get rich scheme when their art history degree and "original" paintings didn't get them the nyc gallery they wanted, it really could be anything.
This is why people share their experiences here, because no one approaches the profession in a vacuum - everyone in influenced by external factors, including you. The thing this, there are a lot of people who come here who *do* want to go to law school for the wrong reasons - the whole point of being negative/cynical/whatever you want to call it is to reach the people who show up here, not just to reach some hypothetical perfectly informed applicant who is perfectly suited for law. Even if the people who have problems with law/are warning people away from law have themselves to blame, not the profession (which I don't actually agree is as much the case as you seem to believe it is), the whole point is that many of the people who come here may share those exact same reasons why law doesn't work for someone. The person saying DON'T DO IT GO INTO CODING DO ANYTHING ELSE etc. may in fact share a lot of characteristics with someone who shows up considering law school, and can provide decent information about why someone who didn't know what else to do with their degree/thought law would be something it isn't shouldn't go into the field.

I agree that there are happy lawyers (I am a happy lawyer, generally, though there are definitely tough things about the profession). But I don't think that means everyone who's unhappy with law is unhappy because of their own issues. Law is also a huge umbrella - my job is ENTIRELY unlike biglaw - so there are lots of ways the people can be happy/unhappy with it.

(I agree that people should do their due diligence and not take out $300K in loans... but that law school costs $300k to begin with is fucking INSANE and I think it's appropriate to talk about that, and make sure people are aware, and not just jettison people who didn't do their due diligence, or who did their due diligence and nonetheless believed, before going through it, that an investment of $300k in YHSCCN would pay off.)
Right I agree with all of this, but you have to admit that it is ransom as heck with the negativity on this board and unexplained and unwarranted. It's like u saying I really want to be a lawyer what's the best course of action to best do so: don't go to law school do coding. The post ends after that with no further explination. How is that helpful, how is it right? It is detrimental to people who actually want to be lawyers. It's pissing in their ice cream lol.

I knwo the profession isn't perfect, my point is this: when people tell me most law students are miserable or I hate law school. I rightfully don't automatically assume it's the profession that is the problem but other factors that could cause the negativity bc it's the smart thing to do. I'm not a negative Nancy I look at things at all angles to get a better understanding. If someone isn't like that they will just assume law all around sucks and I know it doesn't. All careers have their ups and downs. You should hear med students complain and go off like mad men, but am I to assume that it's med school and medicine isn't a rewarding career? You should hear kpmg and Deloitte accountants the literally are screaming and crying in bathrooms, should I assuem then accounting ingeneral sucks and not worth it...the same goes for all careers. It is a struggle for the most part, and I have to realize that anything I do there is a fight and nothing is more easier than the others and if I want some easy money Ill just be a cocktail waitress and make bank, but I want a career and I want to be a lawyer and I'm willing to work for it.

So while I appreciate the heads up, I prefer it to be articulate heads up and not cliff hangers and depressing shit to deter people and piss in their ice cream with things like don't do le do coding as if coding is somehow easier for someoen with no science background or your wasting your time law sucks without explaining why law sucks and wondering how this person knows that law will suck for me and how this person knows that I won't be happy doing something they hate

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:56 pm

Wrt your question "So how bad can law school profession be, If you go about it the right way or the best way possible?": I really don't think it's possible to know What It's Like To Be a Lawyer until you're a lawyer. So whatever you do "right" in terms of getting in/doing well/etc., it's really hard to know whether you will thrive in this profession until you're in it. Doing as many internships/law clerk jobs during school as you can helps, but - at least in my experience - the stuff that's difficult about the job has nothing to do with going to the right school or getting the right job or having debt/not having debt.

(Since I'm not in biglaw and that's where most people here seem to want to be, I won't say much about the problems with the profession, but I'm not talking about the hours or the unpredictability or the usual stuff biglawyers complain about - it's just that it is a job that trains you to obsess about minute details, look for problems, and focus on the negative. Problem-solving means you're always wading in other people's problems. That can be hard for people.)

I will admit that although I had a good outcome, have a good job that I enjoy (most of the time), I have a very very hard time encouraging anyone to get into this profession. The cost is stupid high, the good jobs are very difficult to get (and it depends on how you define "good"), and while of course nothing is easy, I feel like if law school turns out badly it turns out really badly.

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by AReasonableMan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:58 pm

lillawyer2 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:
Clearly wrote:Hang on, do I have an 0L telling me about law school and the profession?
No you don't. I don't think your reading skills are fundamentally working. You gave me an extreme example that made no sense as the majority of people shouldn't take out that loan amount in ANY situation. So I told you same.

The only comment I made about the profession is that if you can't make it and live decently with a professional degree then maybe it's less to do with the profession and more to do with the person, because clearly in any career you have to hustle. Sorry if things weren't exactly like the brochure but you kind of have to expect that.
You're assuming that failing is a result of lacking hustle, which is a reasonable assumption to make if you're an outsider, but is not the reality. Also, the poster you're speaking about did exceptionally well for themselves, but is concerned about others. This is the character trait referred to as empathy.
No I'm not. A big part of being successful (in my eyes) in a career is how well you can navigate your field. So I'm saying that I cannot look at all the complaints with equal value. It could be several factors that cause the failing or lack of career for lawyers, I used hustle as one of them, but should I assume that it's is the profession that is the problem or that there maybe other cause and effect issues. Maybe you aren't a very good lawyer, maybe life has thrown too much at you, maybe you didn't go to a good enough school to land the job you needed/wanted, maybe debt is too crippling to get your feet to land where they want. I find it hard to blame a profession for the problems people face when the profession can't hide much from you. i know people who went to t3 who didn't land the big law job but hustle their ass in side legal work and make bank. I also know t3 graduates struggling to find work with a woe is me attitude.

I know what the op was suing and I agree with him. Listen to the advice of tls people it's good advice it WILL SAVE you a lot of heart ache and problems. So how bad can law school profession be, If you go about it the right way or the best way possible? This is my question since many posters love to make the legal profession seem like an all around nightmare that should be avoided like the plague.
With your long winded rants and ravings and writing, it may be hard for you. I think what the posters are getting at is that most of the school's people attend are more likely to produce a bad result than a good result, and for this reason should be avoided unless special circumstances in play suggest otherwise. I think that a lot of the people complaining don't realize how much 160k is, but are correct in realizing that it's not that much money when you factor in the horrible tax rates and cost of living.

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lillawyer2

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by lillawyer2 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:08 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
lillawyer2 wrote:
Clearly wrote:Hang on, do I have an 0L telling me about law school and the profession?
No you don't. I don't think your reading skills are fundamentally working. You gave me an extreme example that made no sense as the majority of people shouldn't take out that loan amount in ANY situation. So I told you same.

The only comment I made about the profession is that if you can't make it and live decently with a professional degree then maybe it's less to do with the profession and more to do with the person, because clearly in any career you have to hustle. Sorry if things weren't exactly like the brochure but you kind of have to expect that.
You're assuming that failing is a result of lacking hustle, which is a reasonable assumption to make if you're an outsider, but is not the reality. Also, the poster you're speaking about did exceptionally well for themselves, but is concerned about others. This is the character trait referred to as empathy.
No I'm not. A big part of being successful (in my eyes) in a career is how well you can navigate your field. So I'm saying that I cannot look at all the complaints with equal value. It could be several factors that cause the failing or lack of career for lawyers, I used hustle as one of them, but should I assume that it's is the profession that is the problem or that there maybe other cause and effect issues. Maybe you aren't a very good lawyer, maybe life has thrown too much at you, maybe you didn't go to a good enough school to land the job you needed/wanted, maybe debt is too crippling to get your feet to land where they want. I find it hard to blame a profession for the problems people face when the profession can't hide much from you. i know people who went to t3 who didn't land the big law job but hustle their ass in side legal work and make bank. I also know t3 graduates struggling to find work with a woe is me attitude.

I know what the op was suing and I agree with him. Listen to the advice of tls people it's good advice it WILL SAVE you a lot of heart ache and problems. So how bad can law school profession be, If you go about it the right way or the best way possible? This is my question since many posters love to make the legal profession seem like an all around nightmare that should be avoided like the plague.
With your long winded rants and ravings and writing, it may be hard for you. I think what the posters are getting at is that most of the school's people attend are more likely to produce a bad result than a good result, and for this reason should be avoided unless special circumstances in play suggest otherwise. I think that a lot of the people complaining don't realize how much 160k is, but are correct in realizing that it's not that much money when you factor in the horrible tax rates and cost of living.
Mhm, I agree with this, but a lot of negativity is presented even without knowing the intent or plan of the posters, so in that sense it's just detrimental and hurtful snarky advice. I've had people tell me the same negative responses without me even telling them my plan. If I didn't know better and I didn't read further (other tls advice) I would have really been turnt around, so I dislike very much when people randomly put in anti law shit on a legal forum. It's like what? lol

And I do apologize for the ranting, I don't mean it too come off so wild..I'm in a space where im trying to type quickly and not realizing I'm writing the same thing in multiple ways... But I hope you get what I'm trying to say at heart.

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by lillawyer2 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:27 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Wrt your question "So how bad can law school profession be, If you go about it the right way or the best way possible?": I really don't think it's possible to know what it's like to be a lawyer until you're a lawyer. So whatever you do "right" in terms of getting in/doing well/etc., it's really hard to know whether you will thrive in this profession until you're in it. Doing as many internships/law clerk jobs during school as you can helps, but - at least in my experience - the stuff that's difficult about the job has nothing to do with going to the right school or getting the right job or having debt/not having debt.

(Since I'm not in biglaw and that's where most people here seem to want to be, I won't say much about the problems with the profession, but I'm not talking about the hours or the unpredictability or the usual stuff biglawyers complain about - it's just that it is a job that trains you to obsess about minute details, look for problems, and focus on the negative. Problem-solving means you're always wading in other people's problems. That can be hard for people.)

I will admit that although I had a good outcome, have a good job that I enjoy (most of the time), I have a very very hard time encouraging anyone to get into this profession. The cost is stupid high, the good jobs are very difficult to get (and it depends on how you define "good"), and while of course nothing is easy, I feel like if law school turns out badly it turns out really badly.
Yes, this is true there is no guarantee anywhere. So I understand your perspective and respect it. I do know that there are other careers that if it doesn't pan out it is very bad. Med school is one of them. It is a do or die situation I think more so than law. If you don't make it and the unbelieveable stress. I think law tends to get the worse rep and I feel there are other careers that also have terrible consequences if you fall short of don't make it

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stego

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by stego » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:21 pm

You don't need a tech degree to work in the tech/IT industry. A lot of people there are self-taught/don't have technical degrees.

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by ig88250 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:52 pm

I know a job that requires a minimum of 50 hours a week, but in reality requires much much more. In fact, your average will be closer to 60 hours with many weeks hitting 80+.

Nearly every issue you deal with is urgent and needs immediate attention. You must always be available.
You always have more work than you can complete
It is intellectually stimulating, but emotionally exhausting
You get to work with some cool people, but you have to put up with some psychopaths.
Your vacations are not guaranteed and you will frequently get called back from a vacation early.
Leaving the job well after midnight is not only possible - but normal and will happen at LEAST 1x a week.
Your boss is frequently a decent person, but under intense pressure and often that pressure is released in your direction.

You also get a few unique opportunities from this job in that you can hire your own help and manage 30+ direct reports.

The best part about this job? It doesn't require a degree! You can get all the suck and stress of biglaw without spending a day in college. Of course, the pay will be less. In a good company you will only make $50-65k/yr plus bonus. Some companies pay much, much less.

But hey, being a fast food general manager isn't for everyone.

Lawyers and future lawyers tend to have an idea that the suckiness of lifestyle is unique to the law profession. It isn't.

There are jobs with more pay
There are jobs with less hours
There are jobs with more stress
There are jobs with more flexibility

There are also lots of jobs with the same demands, the same stress and the same complications as being a lawyer that pay less - but for some reason people love them. In fact, I was a fast food GM for 10 years. There was a lot of complaining and nashing of teeth, but deep down most of my peers loved the work. We lived off the stress and chaos. I imagine many people who pursue law, and enjoy it, are the same way. Their satisfaction doesn't come from the pay but from the work.

There is only one reason to pay big $$$ to become a lawyer - and that reason has nothing to do with money.

Only go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. Not because you want prestige. Not because you want to make big bucks. Only if you want to be a lawyer.

Now, you think you want to be a lawyer - so lets ask a few questions:

1. Do you like to be overwhelmed by work?
2. Do you thrive off of competition and chaos?
3. Do you have thick skin?
4. Are you driven by a desire to win - even if winning requires hours upon hours of mind numbingly boring work?

If you don't answer yes to most of those questions then you should reconsider.

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eagle2a

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by eagle2a » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:30 am

Just wanted to update you guys. Definitely don't go to a school unless you're completely satisfied being around median

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Post removed...

Post by pleadthafif » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:28 am

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AReasonableMan

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by AReasonableMan » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:32 am

ig88250 wrote:I know a job that requires a minimum of 50 hours a week, but in reality requires much much more. In fact, your average will be closer to 60 hours with many weeks hitting 80+.

Nearly every issue you deal with is urgent and needs immediate attention. You must always be available.
You always have more work than you can complete
It is intellectually stimulating, but emotionally exhausting
You get to work with some cool people, but you have to put up with some psychopaths.
Your vacations are not guaranteed and you will frequently get called back from a vacation early.
Leaving the job well after midnight is not only possible - but normal and will happen at LEAST 1x a week.
Your boss is frequently a decent person, but under intense pressure and often that pressure is released in your direction.

You also get a few unique opportunities from this job in that you can hire your own help and manage 30+ direct reports.

The best part about this job? It doesn't require a degree! You can get all the suck and stress of biglaw without spending a day in college. Of course, the pay will be less. In a good company you will only make $50-65k/yr plus bonus. Some companies pay much, much less.

But hey, being a fast food general manager isn't for everyone.

Lawyers and future lawyers tend to have an idea that the suckiness of lifestyle is unique to the law profession. It isn't.

There are jobs with more pay
There are jobs with less hours
There are jobs with more stress
There are jobs with more flexibility

There are also lots of jobs with the same demands, the same stress and the same complications as being a lawyer that pay less - but for some reason people love them. In fact, I was a fast food GM for 10 years. There was a lot of complaining and nashing of teeth, but deep down most of my peers loved the work. We lived off the stress and chaos. I imagine many people who pursue law, and enjoy it, are the same way. Their satisfaction doesn't come from the pay but from the work.

There is only one reason to pay big $$$ to become a lawyer - and that reason has nothing to do with money.

Only go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. Not because you want prestige. Not because you want to make big bucks. Only if you want to be a lawyer.

Now, you think you want to be a lawyer - so lets ask a few questions:

1. Do you like to be overwhelmed by work?
2. Do you thrive off of competition and chaos?
3. Do you have thick skin?
4. Are you driven by a desire to win - even if winning requires hours upon hours of mind numbingly boring work?

If you don't answer yes to most of those questions then you should reconsider.
Nearly every issue you deal with is urgent and needs immediate attention. You must always be available.

Not true. One of the most important things is to prioritize assignments. Some work you do is urgent, some, especially for younger lawyers is only tangentially relevant. It makes sense to have the inexperienced lawyer research secondary concerns, because they're unlikely to impact the more important aspects of a deal/case.

You always have more work than you can complete

Not true. Sometimes you'll have an impossible amount of work, sometimes you'll have none.

It is intellectually stimulating, but emotionally exhausting

Depends on the person and the work they do. Some people get stressed looking at all the work they need to do, some get stressed only by things outside their control. I don't even know anyone in private practice who is emotionally exhausted. They are much likelier to be physically exhausted because if you get used to working till 12 it can be awfully hard to fall asleep at 10. Further, the work is frequently not intellectually stimulating at all. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to do good work, and a lot if it is just paying attention to details.

I think the main thing to keep in mind is when you come into a place and have 0 skills other than being smart and/or a go getter, the only reason it makes financial sense to offer you a high salary is because you can be available 24/7. To the extent ageism exists, it's related to one's ability to be on call 24/7, not the BS people feel uncomfortable bossing around people older than them, etc. Almost everything in the profession, like other professions, is motivated by finances.

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totesTheGoat

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Re: Dear O'Ls

Post by totesTheGoat » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:27 pm

lillawyer2 wrote:It probably has less to do with law school and more with the person.
I think law school certainly has a lot to do with it, but the person just compounds the issues. I HATE law school. Between work and school, it's as time intensive as undergrad, but I'm not learning skills (in most classes) that are applicable to the job I will have when I graduate. As somebody who knows what it's like over the horizon, who has worked a job and made good money, I see law school as almost an obstacle. I think you're right that many of us see it as a means to an end (in fact, I try to beat it out of the 0Ls when they see law school as an end). I'm in law school to get a good job. I couldn't care less (besides a passing interest) in learning all facets of the law. Those other facets of the law won't put food on the table for me.

However, I'm not miserable, and that's the difference (IMO) between me an the cynics who are all "law sucks, and you shouldn't be a lawyer unless you're guaranteed a biglaw job, and even then, your life sucks." I really think that 0Ls should spend more time and effort researching long term outcomes, and less time focused on "just get in! just get in!" However, many 0Ls are in a position where they need a professional degree, because their UG degree just isn't getting them anywhere. It's hard to tell them that they're signing themselves up for a bunch of work at not so great pay when their other choice is a bunch of unskilled work at near minimum wage.

Anyway, point being that there's a difference between negativity and skepticism. I'm not negative about law. I wouldn't still be in school if I were cynical about it. I'm really skeptical about many 0Ls' chances in law, especially when so many see just getting into law school as the finish line.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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