Top Law Schools

I'm from Seattle and want to work in Seattle and live there for a considerable amount of time after I graduate, likely my whole life. I started out thinking that I would try for the highest ranked school I could get in, but is there any reason to apply to, say, Michigan at #11, which is ranked higher than UW at #28, if I plan on working in Seattle?

Aside from the benefit that an HYS name recognition gives an applicant, which would be an edge even in Seattle I assume, (and at 3.8 gpa and pt's at 163-169 those are all hail mary's/no's for me) is there any reason for me to not just focus on UW? UW is the highest ranked law school in the PNW region, by far.

If you wanted to work at a big firm in Seattle and/or depending on how much each school cost there might be an argument for attending a T14 over UW.

Given the info presented in the OP, it's impossible to say what you should do. We have no idea about career goals or the cost of each school, which are probably the two most important factors when considering a law school.

Depends on the $$ difference and how you'd be paying for school (loans? parents? savings?)
UW obviously places well in Seattle and you'll have tons of networking opportunities, but you still need good grades for big law.

If you can get into one of the more nationally known T14s and the COA isn't too disparate you should seriously consider the T14 but I'd do it with caution if you're a WA resident, have the scores to suggest you'll do very well at UW, and are given some kind of scholarship to boot. Seattle likes UW, obviously, but from the outside it appears like it's getting more and more competitive every year, with plenty of T14 grads piling in.

TransferHopeful17 wrote:If you can get into one of the more nationally known T14s and the COA isn't too disparate you should seriously consider the T14 but I'd do it with caution if you're a WA resident, have the scores to suggest you'll do very well at UW, and are given some kind of scholarship to boot. Seattle likes UW, obviously, but from the outside it appears like it's getting more and more competitive every year, with plenty of T14 grads piling in.

No scores suggest one will do well enough to get the kinds of grades you need to snag big law out of a school like UW, if that's what you're talking about.

Only speaking to the hypo that you an LSAT score far above class median going into 1L, and you believe that is some kind of indicator of future success as a law student--I am skeptical. As far as what grades you would need to get biglaw in Seattle out of UW, I have no idea ... looks like the large firm score on LST is fairly low at 11% for 2014 grads.

TransferHopeful17 wrote:Only speaking to the hypo that you an LSAT score far above class median going into 1L, and you believe that is some kind of indicator of future success as a law student--I am skeptical. As far as what grades you would need to get biglaw in Seattle out of UW, I have no idea ... looks like the large firm score on LST is fairly low at 11% for 2014 grads.

Yeah

I don't think having a 4.3/180 is enough to confidently assume you'll be in the top 10% at a school like UW

Let alone whatever numbers the OP is rolling with.

UW just isn't a school you attend if you have a goal of big law. Period, full stop.

But if you want to work in Washington state long term and have modest career ambitions it would almost certainly be the best option

You're a couple of points away from T6 so if you don't get the oct score you need there's still dec.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

UW doesn't seem to give out tons of financial aid. Their stats say that the 75% for financial aid is a measly $10,000. Their 25% is an even measly-ier $5,000. It says their resident tuition is $31,980 per academic year.

I'm a low-income single parent. I would finance my education through loans. I only have $5,000 in undergrad debt due to nice scholarships. At a 3.8 gpa I am at UW's 75%. With a 165 on the lsat, I would be above their 50% for lsat scores (160/164/166). So, let's assume I can get some financial aid.

TLS heavily skews to the east coast/northeast/ even south, I'd argue more than the pacific northwest. I posted this because I was thinking I might be getting wrapped up in east coast school competition from being on TLS that really might not benefit me at all, as a PNW'er.

An update: my stats (and maybe my diversity statement, too) seem to fit Berkeley (although less solidly than UW): Berkeley 50% Gpa: 3.79 and lsat: 167. So I am going to apply to Berkeley now, too.

Although I am still unsure if Berkeley would grant me an edge in the PNW market...UW just dominates so much, there is literally no school in Washington State, Oregon, Idaho or Alaska that even comes close. I wish there was a TLS for the PNW...

SeattleStudent wrote:Thanks for the replies, everyone.

UW doesn't seem to give out tons of financial aid. Their stats say that the 75% for financial aid is a measly $10,000. Their 25% is an even measly-ier $5,000. It says their resident tuition is $31,980 per academic year.

I'm a low-income single parent. I would finance my education through loans. I only have $5,000 in undergrad debt due to nice scholarships. At a 3.8 gpa I am at UW's 75%. With a 165 on the lsat, I would be above their 50% for lsat scores (160/164/166). So, let's assume I can get some financial aid.

TLS heavily skews to the east coast/northeast/ even south, I'd argue more than the pacific northwest. I posted this because I was thinking I might be getting wrapped up in east coast school competition from being on TLS that really might not benefit me at all, as a PNW'er.

An update: my stats (and maybe my diversity statement, too) seem to fit Berkeley (although less solidly than UW): Berkeley 50% Gpa: 3.79 and lsat: 167. So I am going to apply to Berkeley now, too.

Although I am still unsure if Berkeley would grant me an edge in the PNW market...UW just dominates so much, there is literally no school in Washington State, Oregon, Idaho or Alaska that even comes close. I wish there was a TLS for the PNW...

Do you have an official LSAT score on file?

^ No, I've been pt'ing solidly at 163-169. Obviously still a hypothetical, but I feel stating a 165 is a good hypothetical.

SeattleStudent wrote:Thanks for the replies, everyone.

UW doesn't seem to give out tons of financial aid. Their stats say that the 75% for financial aid is a measly $10,000. Their 25% is an even measly-ier $5,000. It says their resident tuition is $31,980 per academic year.

I'm a low-income single parent. I would finance my education through loans. I only have $5,000 in undergrad debt due to nice scholarships. At a 3.8 gpa I am at UW's 75%. With a 165 on the lsat, I would be above their 50% for lsat scores (160/164/166). So, let's assume I can get some financial aid.

TLS heavily skews to the east coast/northeast/ even south, I'd argue more than the pacific northwest. I posted this because I was thinking I might be getting wrapped up in east coast school competition from being on TLS that really might not benefit me at all, as a PNW'er.

An update: my stats (and maybe my diversity statement, too) seem to fit Berkeley (although less solidly than UW): Berkeley 50% Gpa: 3.79 and lsat: 167. So I am going to apply to Berkeley now, too.

Although I am still unsure if Berkeley would grant me an edge in the PNW market...UW just dominates so much, there is literally no school in Washington State, Oregon, Idaho or Alaska that even comes close. I wish there was a TLS for the PNW...

Based on the info you've provided, I would say you may be better suited going for UW since you want to live and work there. I wouldn't put too much money on getting BigLaw though, but attending the strongest regional in that area should give you average or slightly better than average employment outcomes.

If you get into Berkeley with substantial money, I would be tempted to spring for that due to ranking and better BigLaw chances. If you're ok with forgoing BigLaw (meaning you won't require biglaw money to service your debt) then I still suggest UW with $$$.

I was in the same situation as you (from Seattle, want to stay in Seattle) and was choosing between UW and lower T14s. Ultimately I chose UW for two reasons. First, it was significantly cheaper, and I believe COA should play a huge factor into your ultimate decision. Second, I'll be able to network year round with firms in Seattle. You wouldn't have that opportunity if you went elsewhere.

Also on the scholarship front, I was pleasantly suprised with what UW offered me. I had similar stats to yours, feel free to pm me with any questions.

purkinje wrote:I was in the same situation as you (from Seattle, want to stay in Seattle) and was choosing between UW and lower T14s. Ultimately I chose UW for two reasons. First, it was significantly cheaper, and I believe COA should play a huge factor into your ultimate decision. Second, I'll be able to network year round with firms in Seattle. You wouldn't have that opportunity if you went elsewhere.

Also on the scholarship front, I was pleasantly suprised with what UW offered me. I had similar stats to yours, feel free to pm me with any questions.

The bolded cannot be overstated. I believe the PNW is pretty tie-sensitive, and being able to demonstrate a commitment to the area will help you secure more gainful emplyoment.

SeattleStudent wrote:I wish there was a TLS for the PNW...

There is, it's called top dash law dash schools dot com. The problem isn't that TLS doesn't know about the market in the PNW, the problem is that the market is tiny. Perkins Coie, the biggest law firm in Seattle, hires 15 summer associates a year. The numbers drop pretty dramatically from there. 15 summers, for context, is a middle-sized firm in Chicago or LA or San Fran, never mind New York.

Unless you begin law school with a gold plated connection to a law firm in Seattle, you don't have a guaranteed job there. It doesn't matter if you go to UW or Yale, there simply aren't enough jobs in the market to go around.

TLS is right: if you want to be in Seattle > work in big law, then UW with $$$ is probably the right choice. If you want to work in big law, then go to a T14. There is no scenario where you should be counting on Seattle big law, it's just not that big of a market.

edit: someone with a hard IP background born and raised in Seattle and going to Stanford is probably safe.

TheUnicornHunter wrote:

SeattleStudent wrote:I wish there was a TLS for the PNW...

There is, it's called top dash law dash schools dot com. The problem isn't that TLS doesn't know about the market in the PNW, the problem is that the market is tiny. Perkins Coie, the biggest law firm in Seattle, hires 15 summer associates a year. The numbers drop pretty dramatically from there. 15 summers, for context, is a middle-sized firm in Chicago or LA or San Fran, never mind New York.

Unless you begin law school with a gold plated connection to a law firm in Seattle, you don't have a guaranteed job there. It doesn't matter if you go to UW or Yale, there simply aren't enough jobs in the market to go around.

TLS is right: if you want to be in Seattle > work in big law, then UW with $$$ is probably the right choice. If you want to work in big law, then go to a T14. There is no scenario where you should be counting on Seattle big law, it's just not that big of a market.

edit: someone with a hard IP background born and raised in Seattle and going to Stanford is probably safe.

I want big law, but thought Seattle had that (not as much as I thought?) There seem to be tons of large law firms in downtown: Perkins Coie, Stole Rives, Schwabe Williamson, K&L Gates, Garvey Schubert, Davis Wright, Lane Powell, etc. I only have connections to a mid-size boutique firm. I will think this over and seek more input, as well.

Purkinje - definitely emailing you! Thanks

SeattleStudent wrote:

TheUnicornHunter wrote:
I want big law, but thought Seattle had that (not as much as I thought?) There seem to be tons of large law firms in downtown: Perkins Coie, Stole Rives, Schwabe Williamson, K&L Gates, Garvey Schubert, Davis Wright, Lane Powell, etc. I only have connections to a mid-size boutique firm. I will think this over and seek more input, as well.

Purkinje - definitely emailing you! Thanks

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/Page.cfm?PageID=34

The issue isn't a lack of firms as much as it is the size of the firms.

Firm/ Projected SA positions

Perkins/ 16
Stoel/ 1
Schwabe/ not listed
K&L/ 7
Garvey/ 2
Davis Wright/ 5
Lane/ 3

etc....

add em all up and the entire market is still smaller than one mid-size New York firm.

TheUnicornHunter wrote: http://www.nalpdirectory.com/Page.cfm?PageID=34

The issue isn't a lack of firms as much as it is the size of the firms.

add em all up and the entire market is still smaller than one mid-size New York firm.

Thanks for posting that. I knew Seattle firm offerings were extremely small, but not that small.

TheUnicornHunter wrote:

SeattleStudent wrote:

TheUnicornHunter wrote:
I want big law, but thought Seattle had that (not as much as I thought?) There seem to be tons of large law firms in downtown: Perkins Coie, Stole Rives, Schwabe Williamson, K&L Gates, Garvey Schubert, Davis Wright, Lane Powell, etc. I only have connections to a mid-size boutique firm. I will think this over and seek more input, as well.

Purkinje - definitely emailing you! Thanks

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/Page.cfm?PageID=34

The issue isn't a lack of firms as much as it is the size of the firms.

Firm/ Projected SA positions

Perkins/ 16
Stoel/ 1
Schwabe/ not listed
K&L/ 7
Garvey/ 2
Davis Wright/ 5
Lane/ 3

etc....

add em all up and the entire market is still smaller than one mid-size New York firm.

NALP is missing a bunch of firms. Just off the top of my head I can think of several more v100 firms with offices in Seattle: WSGR, KTS, Baker Hostetler, Fenwick, Cooley, DLA

Some of them might not hire summers, though.

Expected 2015 summers:

WSGR: 2
Cooley: 0
Fenwick: 2
BH: 2

All info from nalpdirectory.com

If you're dead set on Seattle it may be safer to go for NYC biglaw from T14 with a firm that has offices in Seattle and then put in for a transfer.

While I think Seattle biglaw is pretty secure from Yale, OP isn't going to Yale so that's a moot point. But outside HYS it's far from secure. A tech background couldn't hurt though.

(I don't have a tech background, I have a paralegal background, though...)

These stats are shocking. I knew, from working in the legal field in downtown, that after the decline in 2009 law firms in Seattle were emptying out, but I didn't know the market was this small. Everyone was hustling pre-2009. Things changed drastically. But seeing these numbers really puts it into perspective when you compare Seattle to the east coast.

Thanks for the info!

Yup, had to show this to my Seattle friends and family to get them to understand why coming back to Seattle was not an option for me.