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Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:50 pm
by tigersunite
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Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:52 pm
by runinthefront
Is there anything beyond low level "shit law" happening in Hawaii?
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:59 pm
by Nomo
I actually recommend that you try to move to Hawaii and work there for a year or two before law school. In small insular markets you really need to develop serious ties to the place -- and in part that means tying yourself into the fabric of the community so that you start bringing in clients as a midlevel.
You are entering into a profession that isn't good for relocating. You need to make an informed decision about where you want to live before you start law school.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:00 pm
by SFSpartan
tigersunite wrote:... and back if I want to later on.
California native here. First my stats: 3.49 UG, no official LSAT score yet but been PTing between high 160s - low 170s. Sitting in October and studying hard until then. Couple years' nonprofit work experience including grant writing.
Here's the plan: My partner and I want to slide over to Hawaii in the next few years. The obstacle to doing that freely is that Hawaii tends to be a little bit insular, and I really have no ties there. My options are to 1) go to a law school in Hawaii or 2) go to a mainland law school that has enough cred that Hawaii law firms will have to consider me.
I'm not a fan of option 1 because we would both like the plan to have an escape clause where we could move back to the mainland if we need to. There is no Hawaii law school that has pull anywhere outside Hawaii.
So it's down to option 2, and that's where I'm asking for help. I'm thinking that lower T14 may not be outside my reach if I am indeed a splitter, but they are mostly on the East Coast (except for Berkeley, which my GPA makes fairly unlikely). There's also the option of CA regionals. I'm not sure which would have more pull in Hawaii - an East Coast lower T14 or a good CA regional such as UCLA or USC.
If a CA regional offers me more money to attend than the lower T14s (likely), that also changes the equation.
Thoughts? Thanks for your input!
I go to a CA T2. Everything I know about Hawaii is from a friend that is an SA there, so take with a grain of salt.
Hawaii is super ties-sensitive. My buddy went to college there and lived there fore a couple years, and had top 10% grades and was thus able to snag an SA. The other people he was interviewing against (that he knew of) were HYS. The fact that he was chosen over HYS kids speaks volumes as to how insular the legal market is there.
There are three Honolulu firms that control almost all of the interesting work in the state. Everything else is basically shitlaw.
I think that if you aren't at HYS (or a T10, if we're being generous), it will be difficult if not impossible to bag an interesting job in Hawaii.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:25 pm
by banjo
Impossible without ties, and probably a crappy place to start your legal career if you want the option to move back. Are you sure you and your partner don't just need a vacation?
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:06 pm
by ihenry
I have nothing to comment regarding your legal path. Just want to say I love Hawaii, especially Maui island. Been there once; it was superb.
But I do agree that a law degree is not the most portable degree if you like relocation.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:51 pm
by 808Law
I'm from Hawaii (born and raised), but decided to attend a top 40 law school on the mainland.
I applied to the three solid law firms in Hawaii during my 2L OCI, and I got offers from two of them. I ended up going somewhere else, but this insight might be useful to you.
I don't think you have a great shot working at any firms without strong ties to Hawaii. They really emphasized the importance of my ties throughout the interview process. Whether or not you go to UH, you'll need great grades for them to consider you. Each of the three big firms has one MAYBE two summers a year, so it's really competitive.
You could clerk for a judge, but from what I understand judges, state and federal, also highly value ties to Hawaii. Basically, ties to Hawaii are essential. Keep in mind, this advice applies to the bigger firms in Hawaii--I don't know much about the smaller ones. In conclusion, you'll have to go to UH if you want to work in Hawaii. PM me if you'd like more details.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:12 pm
by Mack.Hambleton
808Law wrote:I'm from Hawaii (born and raised), but decided to attend a top 40 law school on the mainland.
I applied to the three solid law firms in Hawaii during my 2L OCI, and I got offers from two of them. I ended up going somewhere else, but this insight might be useful to you.
I don't think you have a great shot working at any firms without strong ties to Hawaii. They really emphasized the importance of my ties throughout the interview process. Whether or not you go to UH, you'll need great grades for them to consider you. Each of the three big firms has one MAYBE two summers a year, so it's really competitive.
You could clerk for a judge, but from what I understand judges, state and federal, also highly value ties to Hawaii. Basically, ties to Hawaii are essential. Keep in mind, this advice applies to the bigger firms in Hawaii--I don't know much about the smaller ones. In conclusion, you'll have to go to UH if you want to work in Hawaii. PM me if you'd like more details.
so basically you would have to attend Univeristy of Hawaii AND have great grades there to have any shot. Seems a bit risky to me
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:43 pm
by Str8Rippin
Everything that was said above is true. I was born in Hawaii, and all of my family still lives there, with the exception of my dad. I moved to the mainland when I was like 8 and visit once a year. I went to a law school in the Pacific Northwest, and had an interview with one of the big(ger) Hawaii law firms at OCI. During the interview I was asked why I wanted to go back home, whether I planned to stay there, and if I wanted to leave. I didn't even get a call back, and I was in the top 10% of my class. I'm guessing that without strong ties, your sol. Best thing to do is look at the law firm associate profiles of the biggest law firms in hawaii, and you will see the type of people that get hired.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:29 pm
by CanadianWolf
OP: You need to adjust your priorities, in my opinion. Go to the best law school to which you are admitted that is affordable & likely to result in gainful employment in the legal field. If you remain fixated on living & working in Hawaii, then attending UH for law school may be the best--although still not good--option.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:07 pm
by kolokena
I will echo what everyone said about importance of ties there (I was born and raised). that being said, if you're dead set on your plan, UC Hastings has a solid reputation in Hawaii (esp w/ older people) since it was Hawaii's "state" law school before UH opened. Not sure how much of an escape hatch that would be though, since UC Hastings might only give you pull in the Bay if you wanted to leave Hawaii at some point. Also USC (undergrad) has a very strong network in Hawaii that you might be able to tap for job if you really hustle and make connections. Finally Clifton (9th Cir) takes clerks without traditional ties to Hawaii (I know at least 1 of his clerks was born/raised elsewhere with no family on the island but came from an Ivy).
I will also add that Cades Shutte (Hawaii's one and only equivalent of a "big law" firm paying $80K/yr) and one other firm whose name escapes me right now does OCI at Berkeley.
Good luck, moving there is tough especially if you have student loans. High real estate prices, low wages, and high COL (e.g., $10/gallon of milk sometimes) makes it nearly impossible.
PS If there are other people from Hawaii working in NYC PM me? Moving there for work soon and would to meet up!
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:23 pm
by BigZuck
This sounds like an exceptionally bad idea OP. Trying to get a job in Hawaii without ties and then also wanting the flexibility to move when you want to? That's a pipe dream, it simply won't happen for all the reasons mentioned ITT. You need a better plan.
Also, it's shameful that Michigan has this on their website:
http://students.law.umich.edu/rg/issues ... awaii.html
That's almost as shameful as some of the TLS law school profiles.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:40 pm
by TheSpanishMain
Hawaii is more than "a little bit" insular
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:52 pm
by stego
TheSpanishMain wrote:Hawaii is more than "a little bit" insular
it is literally a series of islands
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:22 pm
by banjo
stasg wrote:TheSpanishMain wrote:Hawaii is more than "a little bit" insular
it is literally a series of islands
Ironically, the least insular market in the country is also an island.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:30 pm
by AReasonableMan
The biggest issue is that the mainland of Hawaii is a high cost area, and pays half of other markets. COL in places like Berlin, Munich, Boston and NYC tend to get overblown because of how good the public transit is and lack of need to have a vehicle. You're basically making 80k pre-tax in the best case scenario.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:10 am
by TheSpanishMain
Also, why are you so convinced you want to live in Hawaii? I used to live on Oahu, and living there is very different than vacationing there. The CoL is high (you'll pay east coast prices for an apartment that hasn't been updated since the late 80s), a lot of the infrastructure is old, traffic is bad, and a lot of the locals are standoffish at best to new arrivals. You're also living in the middle of the Pacific: seeing friends and family on the mainland is not easy or cheap.
I'm not trashing Hawaii: if we got stationed there again I'd be fine with it. The weather is gorgeous and parts of the islands are absolutely beautiful. It's also (relatively) easy to explore Asia from Hawaii. I'm just saying it has its drawbacks like any other place, and a lot of people forget that because their only experience of Hawaii is a weeklong party on Waikiki Beach.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
by krads153
My classmate went to Hawaii from a Midwestern T-14, having never lived there. Had ties though (brother was in Hawaii).
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:24 pm
by Cerberaus
I just accepted an offer with a firm in HI; you can PM me if you have questions.
I have NO ties whatsoever to HI, and I have NEVER lived there or been there. I don't even know someone who is currently living in HI. That being said, I think that my situation is rare. If you are dead set on working there, ties to the area are essential.
I will disagree with some above comments that HI practices low-level law and the compensation isn't enough. Yes, you might not be on par with the Cravaths or Lathams, but it seems that I'll be doing meaningful work. Second, although I won't be cruising around in a Ferrari as an associate, my compensation is actually better (in real money) than most firms in the Bay Area (where I go to school) or NYC where my folks live.
I won't paint a picture of HI as a utopia that is without problems. Cost of living is high, traffic is second only to LA in the US, I'm worried about the locals hating me, and I'm concerned that I might not be able to return to the mainland if I should need to. That being said, no job is without cons, and you really have to decide if the firm is a good fit. In the end, I chose HI not because I was choosing Hawaii, but because I was choosing that firm. Sell that to a firm that you interview with instead of some make-believe fantasy of why you want to live in HI.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:59 pm
by TheSpanishMain
Good stuff. I assume you're going to be in Honolulu. I'm sure there are people with much more current knowledge, but hit me up if you have any questions about the move.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:43 pm
by Cerberaus
TheSpanishMain wrote:Good stuff. I assume you're going to be in Honolulu. I'm sure there are people with much more current knowledge, but hit me up if you have any questions about the move.
I will be working in downtown Honolulu. My mind is so focused on getting out there and working that I sometimes forget about school.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:29 am
by Dcc617
Cerberaus wrote:TheSpanishMain wrote:Good stuff. I assume you're going to be in Honolulu. I'm sure there are people with much more current knowledge, but hit me up if you have any questions about the move.
I will be working in downtown Honolulu. My mind is so focused on getting out there and working that I sometimes forget about school.
What part of downtown Honolulu? There are some super sketchy areas.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:55 am
by Smumps
Disclaimer: I grew up in HI (Native Hawaiian), went to UoC for law school, and am clerking in HI before going back to CA.
As others have said, Hawaii is VERY insular, to the point where people are more interested in your high school than anything else. And the legal profession is no exception - from clerks to associates, actual HI ties are at a premium. So while it's possible, it will be really tough.
The more important question is if you even want to. The type of law is limited, and even the good firms are doing more personal injury type work than you would expect. And compensation is low - despite what Cerberaus says, starting salaries are NOWHERE NEAR big law, and combined with an insanely high COL, it can be tough.
Happy to help through PM.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:22 am
by Cerberaus
Dcc617 wrote:Cerberaus wrote:TheSpanishMain wrote:Good stuff. I assume you're going to be in Honolulu. I'm sure there are people with much more current knowledge, but hit me up if you have any questions about the move.
I will be working in downtown Honolulu. My mind is so focused on getting out there and working that I sometimes forget about school.
What part of downtown Honolulu? There are some super sketchy areas.
Where the majority of the law firms are: right across from Sand Island and walking distance of Waikiki beach.
Re: Unusual path - how to get to Hawaii
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:59 am
by lavarman84
Smumps wrote:Disclaimer: I grew up in HI (Native Hawaiian), went to UoC for law school, and am clerking in HI before going back to CA.
As others have said, Hawaii is VERY insular, to the point where people are more interested in your high school than anything else. And the legal profession is no exception - from clerks to associates, actual HI ties are at a premium. So while it's possible, it will be really tough.
The more important question is if you even want to. The type of law is limited, and even the good firms are doing more personal injury type work than you would expect. And compensation is low - despite what Cerberaus says, starting salaries are NOWHERE NEAR big law, and combined with an insanely high COL, it can be tough.
Happy to help through PM.
Do people see that as beneath them or something? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm truly curious.