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i am getting really freaked out reading online about how it is only financially worth it to go to a t-14 school. however, my goal is to practice law in colorado. im really not too interested in working at big national law firms. also i am really into fitness and outdoor activities which i have read are really difficult to do when competing for grades at a t-14. just wondering what people's thoughts are on this issue?

lalaa85 wrote:i am getting really freaked out reading online about how it is only financially worth it to go to a t-14 school. however, my goal is to practice law in colorado. im really not too interested in working at big national law firms. also i am really into fitness and outdoor activities which i have read are really difficult to do when competing for grades at a t-14. just wondering what people's thoughts are on this issue?

Where in hell did you get the second part

Edit: about the outdoor activities

lalaa85 wrote:i am getting really freaked out reading online about how it is only financially worth it to go to a t-14 school. however, my goal is to practice law in colorado. im really not too interested in working at big national law firms. also i am really into fitness and outdoor activities which i have read are really difficult to do when competing for grades at a t-14. just wondering what people's thoughts are on this issue?

The entire legal industry is structurally unsound, and its problems are not limited to big law. Crushing educational debt coupled with dismal job prospects makes this the industry to stay away from for years to come.

Seriously, becoming a lawyer makes sense for a very few people. Unless you have a very compelling reason to enter legal practice, you might want to thoroughly reconsider your career choices. Just my two cents.

lalaa85 wrote:i am getting really freaked out reading online about how it is only financially worth it to go to a t-14 school. however, my goal is to practice law in colorado. im really not too interested in working at big national law firms. also i am really into fitness and outdoor activities which i have read are really difficult to do when competing for grades at a t-14. just wondering what people's thoughts are on this issue?

Your reading comprehension needs work, because literally nobody rational says "it is only financially worth it to go to a t-14 school." It is only worth it to go to a school where your odds of finding employment that will allow you to pay off your debt load are high. A strong regional school in an area in which you have ties with a really good scholarship has always been a TLS favorite option (your odds of not getting a great job are higher, but your debt is a lot lower). A T14 with scholarship is good too.

Go to the state flagship for free

Assuming you have CO ties, if not I wouldn't go

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Go to the state flagship for free

Assuming you have CO ties, if not I wouldn't go

I don't think CU gives out but one or two full rides a year, probably to minority students receiving named scholarships. I agree with this practice. Students should have some skin in the game; they do receive value, contrary to the opinions of many on TLS, and it's difficult to feel anything but a hired mercenary without paying some tuition. Trust me, when you get to school you won't want to attend classes with people who have that mentality.

Also, you don't need ties to Colorado to make it work, though ties can never hurt. The only people I knew of from my class that couldn't find a job were from Colorado AND failed the bar.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Go to the state flagship for free

Assuming you have CO ties, if not I wouldn't go

I don't think CU gives out but one or two full rides a year, probably to minority students receiving named scholarships. I agree with this practice. Students should have some skin in the game; they do receive value, contrary to the opinions of many on TLS, and it's difficult to feel anything but a hired mercenary without paying some tuition. Trust me, when you get to school you won't want to attend classes with people who have that mentality.

Also, you don't need ties to Colorado to make it work, though ties can never hurt. The only people I knew of from my class that couldn't find a job were from Colorado AND failed the bar.

Lol wtaf is all of this?

The first bit is utter bullshit and I honestly have no idea how to respond.

You also seriously cannot argue that Colorado is not insular, and ties certainly do more than not hurt. Also while it's great that your friends have jobs, only 66.7% of the c/o 2014 got full time long-term jobs as lawyers that weren't employed by the school, so saying that the only people that couldn't find jobs were from Colorado and failed the bar is very misleading and you're painting a much rosier picture than you should.

your question about outdoor activities makes zero sense

McDuff is offering some fantastically bad advice. It's v. impressive almost.

1. Like what Rinkrat said, go to a school that A. minimizes debt and B. places students into the right law job and geographic area you want. The rankings don't matter as much if your not going Biglaw and major market.

2. "Skin in the game" - this is ridiculously fucked up thinking. There is one difference between people with schollys and those without - the amount of debt they have at the end if the ride. That's it. If you don't get a scholly somewhere you will feel like an idiot and you will be one.

3. Exercise - Lots of people stay fit and get fit in law school. Classes demand very little from you for most of the year. Also law school is full of type A OCD people who not coincidentally go to the gym a lot. You can easily fit in exercise and law school. Exercise and legal practice after school is a different story.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Go to the state flagship for free

Assuming you have CO ties, if not I wouldn't go

I don't think CU gives out but one or two full rides a year, probably to minority students receiving named scholarships. I agree with this practice. Students should have some skin in the game; they do receive value, contrary to the opinions of many on TLS, and it's difficult to feel anything but a hired mercenary without paying some tuition. Trust me, when you get to school you won't want to attend classes with people who have that mentality.

Also, you don't need ties to Colorado to make it work, though ties can never hurt. The only people I knew of from my class that couldn't find a job were from Colorado AND failed the bar.

Moderators: please help us

OP- I agree with rinkrat's reading comprehension thing. If what you're getting out of TLS is that attending a T14 is the only sensible financial choice AND that you won't have a lot of free time in law school then I don't think you're actually reading TLS or if you are, you aren't comprehending what you're reading.

Unless maybe this stuff you're reading online is some other source? If so I suggest poking around this site and maybe doing a few forum searches to see what has been written about both topics.

From the school's perspective, full rides are terrible in both obvious and in-obvious ways. I stated that "I agreed" with the school's policy. I do.

Full ride students, especially the type that apply to 12 or 15 different law schools and pick a school based almost entirely on economic return with little thought given to the region, state, or city, are less likely to have any pride in the school they attend. This means a higher chance of transferring out after the first year and a lessened chance of donating money after graduation assuming they stick around. CU-Boulder and other schools seem to have a policy where they don't really offer full-rides. Again, I agree with this policy. The best scholarship offered lowers your tuition bill at CU to 20k for all three years. This price is more than fair.

scottidsntknow wrote:
You also seriously cannot argue that Colorado is not insular, and ties certainly do more than not hurt. Also while it's great that your friends have jobs, only 66.7% of the c/o 2014 got full time long-term jobs as lawyers that weren't employed by the school, so saying that the only people that couldn't find jobs were from Colorado and failed the bar is very misleading and you're painting a much rosier picture than you should.

I can "seriously" argue that. I am a graduate of the law school and had zero prior ties to the state. Nearly half of my class was in the exact same position. No one I later interviewed with seemed concerned that I would return to my home state. To the extent "ties" mattered or existed, I created a tie by going to the state law school. Had I been the governor's son (who did go to my school), I would have had a really great super duper "tie" and probably had more success in the job market, true. Still, I graduated below median, passed the bar, and had more than one government job to chose from. I am not a URM, for the cynics out there.

67 percent of the class of 2014 had full time jobs requiring bar passage, correct. What does that have to do with anything that I have said? How is that in any way responsive to my prior post? You go on to purposely misstate my position-- I did not say that the only people who couldn't find jobs were from Colorado and bar failures. Please re-read my post more carefully or refrain from making unnecessary assumptions. In terms of the overall success of the last few classes, the employment seems pretty fair. Everyone got the type of thing they wanted and worked diligently for. Not everyone worked diligently towards a full-time JD required position, or even a real job.

You seem incredibly confident of your view. What is your background? Are you a lawyer? From Colorado?

At least skied there once before?

Here's my impression of Randy typing up his "Full rides are bad" argument:

[youtube]MpraJYnbVtE[/youtube]

If this is CU's policy re: schollys, it's an incredibly stupid one. Law schools are fighting for hireable and paying candidates, and those that can't offer regional or national prestige (I.e. good hiring boost due to your school's brand) better offer a good value. If CU's tuition base rate is sufficiently low, then yeah schollys aren't as necessary - your debt is minimized and the general point still stands.

Your general argument about students who pay more = more lotal/better students is just fucking wrong. Surprised you're doubling down on that one. I pay full price at my school. I am an idiot. There are reasons I had to go this route but it by no means indicates I am more loyal to the school - I will never give an alumni donation to them because I am paying full freight. Many people who get a tuition boost A. Are good students and B. Are grateful to the school for helping them out. They often repay the favor in alumni donations. So if played right, schollys end up being economically beneficial. Obviously there is risk there - but the idea that someone paying full freight is somehow fanatically loyal to the school and will never leave is idiotic. If anything they have no incentive to stay if they can pay full freight at a better branded sxhool.

Haha well, I cannot win an internet argument with you pros, so I shall retire. Legitimately funny impression, thanks for that.

to be fair, CU's scholly policy would/should be different from GULC's, which both would/should be different from HYS's.

Seems like you're as perfect a candidate as any for the free or close to free ride at regional argument, because you're not concerned with practicing outside of the state/looking for portability.

My sense is that CO is pretty insular, though, so if you're not from there I would get to networking every chance you get if you do choose to attend.

And yeah, that part about outdoor activities is nonsense. Sure, you have to prioritize your non-studying time pretty strictly, but if it's one of your higher priorities outside of studying you will find time for it. I studied like crazy but still found time for getting away on weekends every now and then, going to concerts, seeing the odd movie, etc.

Looking at Colorado's 2014 509 3 students had more than full tuition scholarships, 0 had full-rides, and 125 (24.3 percent) had between half and full scholarships.

http://www.colorado.edu/law/sites/defau ... -48-04.pdf

Maybe Colorado feels there's little economic benefit to the school from students who pay nothing and the US News boost from recruiting those students isn't worth it. I don't know. State schools in general seem to be less generous with schollys but yeah their tuition is usually also lower to start with.

Capitol_Idea wrote:
Your general argument about students who pay more = more lotal/better students is just fucking wrong. Surprised you're doubling down on that one. I pay full price at my school. I am an idiot.

To be fair, we go to the same school, I don't pay for it, and you have significantly better grades than I do. Point Randy.

Lord Randolph McDuff is correct; Colorado is not insular with respect to legal hiring practices.

Actually, the opposite appears to be true with respect to at least one major Denver law firm that only extends courtesy interviews to top ranked CU grads & rarely even interviews DU grads in favor of T-14 law school grads.

As an aside, one of my longterm friends ran for governor of Colorado as a major party candidate. He was also President of a major Colorado university & held a very influential & high ranking Colorado state government position. He had no Colorado ties whatsoever before moving West & becoming active in party politics.

CanadianWolf wrote:Lord Randolph McDuff is correct; Colorado is not insular with respect to legal hiring practices.

Actually, the opposite appears to be true with respect to at least one major Denver law firm that only extends courtesy interviews to top ranked CU grads & rarely even interviews DU grads in favor of T-14 law school grads.

Biglaw is an evil cynical bitch. They want em' desperate, little family money and big diploma showing how much they want it. 70 hours a week for as long as they can milk them.

I wasn't talking about biglaw, and have noted on here again and again that biglaw cares a great deal about ties.

Sorry, but I don't understand your response which cites my post. Perhaps my post wasn't clear but I was supporting your point.

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Sorry, but I prefer to leave specific firm names out of my posts. If you attend law school in Colorado, your classmates should know.

My point is that Colorado is a very welcoming state.

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i would have had lower grades if i had a full ride. coming from a good school, 60k isn't impossible to pay back even with a relatively low salary where as over a certain amount, failure isn't a viable option. this high stress makes some perform better, and some perform worse. the idea that it's therefore better to take out debt is crazy. if you need extrinsic motivation, just watch jerry springer or imagine your dog needed surgery but you couldn't afford it. don't consciously throw away ten thousands of dollars for this push.

you also speak about schools like they're your country, and you should give everything you have to them. it's fine to donate money to your school, but the idea they're a more worthy cause than other charities (cancer research, orphanages, etc) is crazy.