. Forum

[MikeJD]

Overall, for its flaws, it's clearly superior to the US News rankings.

Idk about that. I have trouble respecting a ranking that tells me to go to Cornell over NYU/Berkeley...

US news is bad but this list is much worse. IT says regional schools that place less than 5% of their grads with almost identical debt into biglaw++clerkships are better than schools that place 30 or 40% of their grads in those jobs. now that is a joke and basically any list that doesn't have YSH as one two three is a joke. Those 3 schools are in their own league and can basically name their jobs, what schools can do that??

[redsoxfan1989]

Overall, for its flaws, it's clearly superior to the US News rankings.

Idk about that. I have trouble respecting a ranking that tells me to go to Cornell over NYU/Berkeley...

That's dumb. Cornell has had strong placement for several years now, and is likely to be cheaper for someone considering NYU or Berkeley. Unless someone is dead-set on California or HAS TO LIVE IN NYC OMG, Cornell is usually TCR.

[trebekismyhero]

Overall, for its flaws, it's clearly superior to the US News rankings.

Idk about that. I have trouble respecting a ranking that tells me to go to Cornell over NYU/Berkeley...

US news is bad but this list is much worse. IT says regional schools that place less than 5% of their grads with almost identical debt into biglaw++clerkships are better than schools that place 30 or 40% of their grads in those jobs. now that is a joke and basically any list that doesn't have YSH as one two three is a joke. Those 3 schools are in their own league and can basically name their jobs, what schools can do that??

Totally agree. Don't go to HYS, but where I am a SA, they allow HYS students extra time/split summers, bring them in as 1Ls, something no other schools get. I am not saying that the right answer is to always pick those schools, if you have a full ride or close to it at another t14 don't pay sticker at HYS. But they are in their own league.

The fact that ATL doesn't have them in the top 3 and also that they have some really crappy regional schools in the top 50 shows that this list somehow managed to be worse than US News

[RunnerRunner]

Overall, for its flaws, it's clearly superior to the US News rankings.

Idk about that. I have trouble respecting a ranking that tells me to go to Cornell over NYU/Berkeley...

That's dumb. Cornell has had strong placement for several years now, and is likely to be cheaper for someone considering NYU or Berkeley. Unless someone is dead-set on California or HAS TO LIVE IN NYC OMG, Cornell is usually TCR.

I respectfully disagree. Cornell does have strong placement, but only into Biglaw unless you are very high up in the class. NYU/Berk give you much better chances at non-firm options, and can also get you Biglaw if that's what you want.

[jbagelboy]

Overall, for its flaws, it's clearly superior to the US News rankings.

Idk about that. I have trouble respecting a ranking that tells me to go to Cornell over NYU/Berkeley...

US news is bad but this list is much worse. IT says regional schools that place less than 5% of their grads with almost identical debt into biglaw++clerkships are better than schools that place 30 or 40% of their grads in those jobs. now that is a joke and basically any list that doesn't have YSH as one two three is a joke. Those 3 schools are in their own league and can basically name their jobs, what schools can do that??

Totally agree. Don't go to HYS, but where I am a SA, they allow HYS students extra time/split summers, bring them in as 1Ls, something no other schools get. I am not saying that the right answer is to always pick those schools, if you have a full ride or close to it at another t14 don't pay sticker at HYS. But they are in their own league.

The fact that ATL doesn't have them in the top 3 and also that they have some really crappy regional schools in the top 50 shows that this list somehow managed to be worse than US News

This isn't true; plenty of people split summers and do 1L SAs outside of three schools. Timelines are extended as regular practice. There's little difference if any in firm placement with Chicago or Columbia; it's a very gradual scale among the T14. Not having Yale as #1 or 2 is ridiculous, true, but thats not the primary flaw of ATL.

[abl]

Overall, for its flaws, it's clearly superior to the US News rankings.

Idk about that. I have trouble respecting a ranking that tells me to go to Cornell over NYU/Berkeley...

US news is bad but this list is much worse. IT says regional schools that place less than 5% of their grads with almost identical debt into biglaw++clerkships are better than schools that place 30 or 40% of their grads in those jobs. now that is a joke and basically any list that doesn't have YSH as one two three is a joke. Those 3 schools are in their own league and can basically name their jobs, what schools can do that??

Totally agree. Don't go to HYS, but where I am a SA, they allow HYS students extra time/split summers, bring them in as 1Ls, something no other schools get. I am not saying that the right answer is to always pick those schools, if you have a full ride or close to it at another t14 don't pay sticker at HYS. But they are in their own league.

The fact that ATL doesn't have them in the top 3 and also that they have some really crappy regional schools in the top 50 shows that this list somehow managed to be worse than US News

This isn't true; plenty of people split summers and do 1L SAs outside of three schools. Timelines are extended as regular practice. There's little difference if any in firm placement with Chicago or Columbia; it's a very gradual scale among the T14. Not having Yale as #1 or 2 is ridiculous, true, but thats not the primary flaw of ATL.

I'm guessing that the original poster meant that many firms are more likely to let HYS folks take extra time, split summers, come in as 1Ls, etc. I agree that it is a gradual scale, but I do think that the original poster is most likely correct that at least some firms are likely to allow more flexibility in these sorts of rules to a YLS student than, say, a Penn student. In other words, because HYS are on the "top" of this graduate scale, these sorts of opportunities are more likely to be available to HYS students than they are to schools "lower" on the scale. (Although I would 100% agree with you that it's not any more black and white than this.)

On the larger point, I also agree with you: the main issue with the ranking is not the results (which are for the most part consistent with common sense and accepted wisdom) -- it's the methodology.

[trebekismyhero]

Overall, for its flaws, it's clearly superior to the US News rankings.

Idk about that. I have trouble respecting a ranking that tells me to go to Cornell over NYU/Berkeley...

US news is bad but this list is much worse. IT says regional schools that place less than 5% of their grads with almost identical debt into biglaw++clerkships are better than schools that place 30 or 40% of their grads in those jobs. now that is a joke and basically any list that doesn't have YSH as one two three is a joke. Those 3 schools are in their own league and can basically name their jobs, what schools can do that??

Totally agree. Don't go to HYS, but where I am a SA, they allow HYS students extra time/split summers, bring them in as 1Ls, something no other schools get. I am not saying that the right answer is to always pick those schools, if you have a full ride or close to it at another t14 don't pay sticker at HYS. But they are in their own league.

The fact that ATL doesn't have them in the top 3 and also that they have some really crappy regional schools in the top 50 shows that this list somehow managed to be worse than US News

This isn't true; plenty of people split summers and do 1L SAs outside of three schools. Timelines are extended as regular practice. There's little difference if any in firm placement with Chicago or Columbia; it's a very gradual scale among the T14. Not having Yale as #1 or 2 is ridiculous, true, but thats not the primary flaw of ATL.

I'm guessing that the original poster meant that many firms are more likely to let HYS folks take extra time, split summers, come in as 1Ls, etc. I agree that it is a gradual scale, but I do think that the original poster is most likely correct that at least some firms are likely to allow more flexibility in these sorts of rules to a YLS student than, say, a Penn student. In other words, because HYS are on the "top" of this graduate scale, these sorts of opportunities are more likely to be available to HYS students than they are to schools "lower" on the scale. (Although I would 100% agree with you that it's not any more black and white than this.)

On the larger point, I also agree with you: the main issue with the ranking is not the results (which are for the most part consistent with common sense and accepted wisdom) -- it's the methodology.

Yeah, didn't mean that only HYS gets 1Ls summers or splits, just that they get way more latitude. Also, probably cause I am not in NYC or SF they bend over backwards more for HYS than probably firms in those cities.

[2014]

This list still has UChi underrated I can't take it seriously

[LA Spring]

Be it SA or offered, the thing is, once you’re in, your in. It isn’t though the Ivies are treated to caviar and everyone else eats hotdogs. Same is true for assignments. Where it might make a difference is at the bar (the kind of bar with bartenders), seems like Harvard holds a distinct advantage.

[abl]

Be it SA or offered, the thing is, once you’re in, your in. It isn’t though the Ivies are treated to caviar and everyone else eats hotdogs. Same is true for assignments. Where it might make a difference is at the bar (the kind of bar with bartenders), seems like Harvard holds a distinct advantage.

That's definitely not true, at least in my experience. I'm sure it depends on the firm and organization, but I do not think that all SAs/incoming associates get treated identically. (And differences in assignments early in your career can have a big impact on your ultimate career.) I couldn't say how much of a role law school plays in these differences--although it's hard to imagine it doesn't play some role--but I can pretty definitively say that "once you're in, you're in" glosses over some very real differences in the treatment of both SAs and incoming associates.

[NorCalLaw]

Overall, for its flaws, it's clearly superior to the US News rankings.

Idk about that. I have trouble respecting a ranking that tells me to go to Cornell over NYU/Berkeley...

US news is bad but this list is much worse. IT says regional schools that place less than 5% of their grads with almost identical debt into biglaw++clerkships are better than schools that place 30 or 40% of their grads in those jobs. now that is a joke and basically any list that doesn't have YSH as one two three is a joke. Those 3 schools are in their own league and can basically name their jobs, what schools can do that??

I don't know, they're both incredibly flawed. Half of the beliefs about these schools come from the stupid US News ranking itself; it's self-enforcing, basically.

Yale at 5 is obviously wrong, but at least they stuck to their guns and didn't try to readjust to fit expectations. They need to capture the fellowships, professorships, and other elite positions that Yale grads acquire; doing so would probably improve the rankings for certain other high-ranking, public-interest minded schools as well.

[LA Spring]

Be it SA or offered, the thing is, once you’re in, your in. It isn’t though the Ivies are treated to caviar and everyone else eats hotdogs. Same is true for assignments. Where it might make a difference is at the bar (the kind of bar with bartenders), seems like Harvard holds a distinct advantage.

That's definitely not true, at least in my experience. I'm sure it depends on the firm and organization, but I do not think that all SAs/incoming associates get treated identically. (And differences in assignments early in your career can have a big impact on your ultimate career.) I couldn't say how much of a role law school plays in these differences--although it's hard to imagine it doesn't play some role--but I can pretty definitively say that "once you're in, you're in" glosses over some very real differences in the treatment of both SAs and incoming associates.

Once you’re in (as a first year) the initial lynchpin to your success primarily hangs on your writing and research (and to some degree your personality and work ethic) more than the school name on your diploma.

In ref to the above poster, what I think is self-enforcing is that the top schools continue to attract the smarter students (GPA:LSAT), thus they stay on top of the rankings, providing them the center of attention spotlight to the top hiring law firms.

[RodneyRuxin]

This list still has UChi underrated I can't take it seriously

Doing God's work man. Keep on keeping on.

[PeanutsNJam]

Literally just fucking LOL at anybody taking these rankings seriously. Tell me with a straight face you'd go to Iowa or New Mexico over GULC at equal cost. And before anybody says "but ATL factors in school costs!", no they don't, they completely ignore scholarships. BYU has 18.8% bl+fc, but is 22? Schools that have better bl+fc placement but ATL ranks lower than BYU:

- USC
- Notre Dame
- WUSTL
- UNC
- GW
- U Minn

fuck I give up. "We care about jerbs" my fucking ass, this ranking list reeks worse than a maggot infested elephant carcass.

[LawsRUs]

I think I would respect ATL more if, rather than fixing its methodolgy, it just stopped ranking schools. The same goes for USNWR.

[TLSModBot]

I think I would respect ATL more if, rather than fixing its methodolgy, it just stopped ranking schools. The same goes for USNWR.

I agree with this completely.

[koval]

Other than ATL not having a way to account for legitimate non-legal jobs/jd advantage jobs, I don't think these rankings are that terrible. I think they're better than the USNWR rankings.

Within the T14, it seems like the rankings followed what people on TLS have been saying; that over the past 2-3 years, schools like GULC, UM, and Berkeley have fallen, and schools like Penn and Cornell have gone up. I definitely don't think that GULC should be at #20, but last year's placement of GULC at #16 didn't seem so bad.

Outside of the T14, it seems like the rankings also followed what people on TLS have been saying, which is that a person should go to the cheapest school that's going to get them a job.

I definitely don't think these rankings are perfect (New Mexico and Akron are mistakes where they are), but I don't think the rankings are as bad as USNWR. That said, sites like LST are a much better tool for choosing a law school than any rankings out there.

[nick417]

Literally just fucking LOL at anybody taking these rankings seriously. Tell me with a straight face you'd go to Iowa or New Mexico over GULC at equal cost. And before anybody says "but ATL factors in school costs!", no they don't, they completely ignore scholarships. BYU has 18.8% bl+fc, but is 22? Schools that have better bl+fc placement but ATL ranks lower than BYU:

- USC
- Notre Dame
- WUSTL
- UNC
- GW
- U Minn

fuck I give up. "We care about jerbs" my fucking ass, this ranking list reeks worse than a maggot infested elephant carcass.

....who then goes on to take these rankings seriously.....

[Hikikomorist]

To everyone saying the ATL rankings are superior to the USNWR ones, which specific placements in USNWR are even close to as terrible as the worst ones on ATL? USNWR might have Berkeley or Michigan a spot or two too high (not saying I agree with that, but it's arguable), sure, but what does it have that compares with dropping Yale to #5, GULC behind Iowa and UNM, and USC out of the top 50?

[beepboopbeep]

To everyone saying the ATL rankings are superior to the USNWR ones, which specific placements in USNWR are even close to as terrible as the worst ones on ATL? USNWR might have Berkeley or Michigan a spot or two too high (not saying I agree with that, but it's arguable), sure, but what does it have that compares with dropping Yale to #5, GULC behind Iowa and UNM, and USC out of the top 50?

I'm more in the rankings-are-shit camp, but it's fine by me if a valid methodology--like focusing almost entirely on placement--leads to some weird or unexpected results. Obviously Yale is Yale and you take it at equal cost over anything. But just saying "it's the most prestigious" isn't really enough, because that leads to self-reinforcing shit (Mich, etc) that isn't born out by outcomes. Gotta find something in the data to support it.

Now, ATL did a crap job measuring what they say they want to measure, and from an outcome-based perspective fucked some shit up. But if the fix the former the latter is whatever. If we just want a ranking of what we all think the ranking should be, that's probably just USNWR with a few tweaks for job placement.

[NorCalLaw]

To everyone saying the ATL rankings are superior to the USNWR ones, which specific placements in USNWR are even close to as terrible as the worst ones on ATL? USNWR might have Berkeley or Michigan a spot or two too high (not saying I agree with that, but it's arguable), sure, but what does it have that compares with dropping Yale to #5, GULC behind Iowa and UNM, and USC out of the top 50?

I'll bite on this. Basically, I think a system that bases itself mostly in empirical data is presumptively better than the largely black box "methodology" employed by USNWR. Of course the rankings are going to seem weird when the current system basically defines everyone's preconceptions. I'd still rather have a system with "unusual" results than one in which Dr. Prestige Esq. "adjusts" all the results at the end for subjective purity or whatever.

That said, you are correct that the ATL rankings are almost comically flawed and lead to plenty of absurd results. It would not be difficult for someone to design a better system; in fact, I bet that the posters on this forum could create a superior system by by committee, even.

[CanadianWolf]

All ratings systems & rankings have flaws if for no other reason than for selection of the factors taken into consideration. The USNews rankings have come under considerable attack for their subjective peer assessment scores. Some time ago (years) I read comments that stated that trial runs which included Princeton Law School & Penn State Law School (before Penn State had a law school-Dickinson) resulted in both receiving very high peer score ratings.

Yale falling from first to fifth was explained, if I recall correctly, due to a drop in federal clerkship placements.

[Worker and Parasite]

lol @ USC not making the top 50, which would only make sense if ATL took into account # of students killed every year

[MikeJD]

All ratings systems & rankings have flaws if for no other reason than for selection of the factors taken into consideration. The USNews rankings have come under considerable attack for their subjective peer assessment scores. Some time ago (years) I read comments that stated that trial runs which included Princeton Law School & Penn State Law School (before Penn State had a law school-Dickinson) resulted in both receiving very high peer score ratings.

Yale falling from first to fifth was explained, if I recall correctly, due to a drop in federal clerkship placements.

Princeton only not Penn state.

yale is ranked where it is because of choice of students to go into academia and so on but every single yale law students could get big law if they wanted.. Basically same with Stanford and probably Harvard(although not a 100% sure on Harvard because of its massive size but it still it is at least numbers 3 behind YS on any credible list).

[MikeJD]

I would think that Columbia(aren't they number one in NLJ 250?) would finish number one given how the ATL formula is suppose to give so much credit to big firm placement but... I think they need to check their calculation.