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Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:22 pm
by FinalDecision1
Hi all, I'm deciding between Berkeley and Northwestern. Would appreciate some insight:
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each: Berkeley 150k; Northwestern 25k
-How you will be financing your COA: loans for the remaining COA indicated above
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties: From CA and want to stay in CA
-Your general career goals: CA big law, particularly in the SF Bay Area. This makes Berkeley tempting
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers: LSAT lower-mid 170s, GPA high 3.7x
-How many times you have taken the LSAT
maxed out
I understand Northwestern is the more financially viable option, but I really want to work in CA and I understand Berkeley has the best placement for that. I also liked the feel of Berkeley more when I visited, and it was my top choice throughout the whole LSAT/applying phase the past 2 years so I have a strong emotional draw there. That being said, is anyone aware of glaring student culture differences between the two schools? Both schools seemed to have collegial, friendly etc students but I had a terrible experience with the Berkeley financial aid/admissions office while NU's was wonderful to deal with. Not sure if this extends onto how life at these schools would be but I appreciate any insight. Thank you!
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:25 pm
by OhBoyOhBortles
Do you have ties to Cal? If you do, NU can get you there. ETA: I can't read. Sorry, OP. With your ties I'd definitely take the $ at NU. That said:
Have you tried negotiating with Berkeley?
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:28 pm
by FinalDecision1
OhBoyOhBortles wrote:Do you have ties to Cal? If you do, NU can get you there.
Also, have you tried negotiating with Berkeley?
Yeah I have ties in the sense that my family lives here and I grew up here. I tried negotiating with Berkeley and unfortunately no dice
They were also pretty rude/unprofessional about the whole thing which kinda turned me off. A family friend (attorney) told me the extra money would be worth it for the better CA firm offers so I'm still drawn there a bit
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:34 pm
by rpupkin
It's definitely easier to get SF Big Law out of Berkeley. But $125K is a lot of money. Also, Berkeley isn't Stanford: you could end up below median and still strike out in SF.
If I were you, I'd choose Northwestern, but I would go with the awareness that SF big law is possible but unlikely. Make sure you're ok with the likelihood of working in another big law market (e.g, NYC, LA, Chicago).
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:49 pm
by Desert Fox
Northwestern. Big law isn't work 100k in debt, even if you are certain, and Boalt ain't a certainty.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:51 pm
by krads153
Northwestern.
Also, you're probably going to need to be at least top third to get SF biglaw from Berkeley. SF is one of the most competitive markets in the country. LA is a lot easier.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:56 pm
by Winston1984
That's a sweet deal for NU.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:00 pm
by rpupkin
krads153 wrote:Northwestern.
Also, you're probably going to need to be at least top third to get SF biglaw from Berkeley. SF is one of the most competitive markets in the country. LA is a lot easier.
Like I said, I think the OP should go to NU, but the bolded is what makes Berkeley tempting. The thing is, you
don't need "at least top third" grades to get SF big law from Berkeley. You need at least top-third grades (or even better) from most other non-HYS T14 schools, but Berkeley students at median can get SF big law. Although a median Berkeley student certainly isn't a lock for SF big law, it's a realistic possibility.
That's why if the cost difference here was significantly less, Berkeley would make sense. But I agree with DF: $125K of debt is too high of a premium to pay for the somewhat better chance at SF big law.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:21 pm
by L’Étranger
rpupkin wrote:krads153 wrote:Northwestern.
Also, you're probably going to need to be at least top third to get SF biglaw from Berkeley. SF is one of the most competitive markets in the country. LA is a lot easier.
Like I said, I think the OP should go to NU, but the bolded is what makes Berkeley tempting. The thing is, you
don't need "at least top third" grades to get SF big law from Berkeley. You need at least top-third grades (or even better) from most other non-HYS T14 schools, but Berkeley students at median can get SF big law. Although a median Berkeley student certainly isn't a lock for SF big law, it's a realistic possibility.
That's why if the cost difference here was significantly less, Berkeley would make sense. But I agree with DF: $125K of debt is too high of a premium to pay for the somewhat better chance at SF big law.
I posted this in another thread. I may just post this in every Berkeley v. SomeOther Law thread. krads seems to be trolling B. I have no idea where that top 1/3 stuff comes from.
The tldr version of the common wisdom that I've seen/heard and that I strongly agree with is that if you want to work as an attorney in CA and you don't get HYS, B is the way to go. How much attending B is worth to a person, in my mind, depends on how much certainty a person wants in terms of landing a job in CA.
I personally would not have accepted a full scholarship to a school that would have required me to be at the top of the class to get a biglaw job in CA.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:51 pm
by CanadianWolf
Northwestern for $25,000 in student loan debt versus Berkeley with $150,000 in student loan debt. Seems like a clear choice even for one seeking San Francisco.
The cultures at the two law schools have, at least in the recent past, been different. But, there are enough students in each school to enable you to find your own crowd.
I suspect that it'll be very hard for you to turn down UCal-Berkeley, but the debt difference is too much for schools with similar placement stats, in my opinion. If you knew for certain that you would get SF biglaw from Berkeley, then the extra cost would be palatable, but that's far from being a certainty.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 7:05 pm
by FinalDecision1
Thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate hearing your thoughts. I had heard that although you can get back to CA from other t14 schools, unless you are in the top of the class it likely won't be at as good as firm as those available to Boalt graduates. Is there any credence to this?
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 7:28 pm
by Tiago Splitter
It's just one year and one office but the Bay Area firm I'm headed to has more people from Northwestern in the entering class than from Berkeley.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:19 pm
by rpupkin
FinalDecision1 wrote:Thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate hearing your thoughts. I had heard that although you can get back to CA from other t14 schools, unless you are in the top of the class it likely won't be at as good as firm as those available to Boalt graduates. Is there any credence to this?
There's a little truth somewhere in there, but I think what you heard is exaggerated. You don't have to be "top of the class" to get CA from a non-HYSB T14. You just have to be somewhat higher in the class. Top 25% + ties will give you a good shot from any school in the T14. Also, note that there's a difference between Southern California and Northern California. The latter is significantly harder to get than the former. Northern California is where Boalt's local pull really shines relative to the rest of the T14. When you're talking about Southern California, I think Boalt still has an advantage over its peer schools, but the advantage is less pronounced.
Oh, and I think that the "won't be at as good as a firm" line was odd. For the most part, the big law firms that hire from Boalt also hire from the rest of the T14. There are a few boutique exceptions (like KVN) that basically hire only from HYSB. But those account for a small percentage of the legal jobs available to grads in California.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:20 pm
by BiglawAssociate
FLAME THREAD. Nobody can be this stupid.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:27 pm
by zaetoroftheprotoss
.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:30 pm
by usn26
Winston1984 wrote:That's a sweet deal for NU.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:44 pm
by kcdc1
FinalDecision1 wrote:Thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate hearing your thoughts. I had heard that although you can get back to CA from other t14 schools, unless you are in the top of the class it likely won't be at as good as firm as those available to Boalt graduates. Is there any credence to this?
Sharing this to help you feel better about saving 125k (aka: the down payment on a 600k condo):
I attend Northwestern, I am not top of my class, I have no ties to CA, and when asked in interviews about said lack of ties, I said things like "the weather doesn't hurt." I received biglaw SA offers in the Bay Area.
I had pretty respectable credentials overall, so your mileage may vary. Just one data point.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:07 pm
by rpupkin
kcdc1 wrote:FinalDecision1 wrote:Thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate hearing your thoughts. I had heard that although you can get back to CA from other t14 schools, unless you are in the top of the class it likely won't be at as good as firm as those available to Boalt graduates. Is there any credence to this?
Sharing this to help you feel better about saving 125k (aka: the down payment on a 600k condo):
I attend Northwestern, I am not top of my class, I have no ties to CA, and when asked in interviews about said lack of ties, I said things like "the weather doesn't hurt." I received biglaw SA offers in the Bay Area.
If that's true, then I bet you have a tech background and an IP focus.
I should add, OP: If you've got a tech degree and an interest in patent work, then your grades from NU (or any other T14) will be far less important for landing something in the SF Bay Area.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:32 pm
by Clyde Frog
Boalt is full of hippies
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:38 pm
by kcdc1
rpupkin wrote:If that's true, then I bet you have a tech background and an IP focus.
I should add, OP: If you've got a tech degree and an interest in patent work, then your grades from NU (or any other T14) will be far less important for landing something in the SF Bay Area.
I am IP-focused, and like I said, I have pretty solid credentials (tho no CS/EE or advanced bio/chem degree). My point is that Northwestern can get you in the door with CA firms, assuming you have suitable credentials. As to what constitutes suitable credentials, that will vary firm-to-firm and specialty-to-specialty.
Again, YMMV, but I'd recommend saving the money. Your significant other will appreciate the condo.
Re: Berkeley vs Northwestern
Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:37 am
by Indifference
Money wins, I'd take Northwestern for the COA