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Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 4:09 pm
by aibohphobia
I've been to UVA and really liked the school, culture, and city. I'm not a huge fan of NYC but if it provides me a better return on the investment of three years and however much money then I'm happy to do it. Columbia also seems to have a gunner reputation (which i would not enjoy), but I keep hearing mixed things on that so I'm not too sure. I'm getting the feeling UVA is TCR here, but there was a thread I found here once where they polled TLS users for employment outcomes based on school, rank, journals, etc that is holding me back. I can't find it now but it seemed to suggest that while biglaw placement occurred at both schools, kids from ccn have tremendously more access to high ranked vault firms. While the value of the vault rankings is probably minimal, I assume that selectivity in hiring is loosely associated with vault ranking. I think I'm overthinking what should be an easy decision but I wanted to get some thoughts before I decide.
-The schools you are considering
Columbia with 50k and UVA with 90K. Negotiations already attempted
-COA
Columbia: 160k; UVA: 72k (includes savings and parental contribution, does not include any potential income during school)
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
Family, savings, and then the rest (the above COA) with loans
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
from the south and only have ties in the south. Open to working anywhere (houston, chicago, nashville, austin, DC, charlotte, anywhere in california) so I have a preference for portability of degree. I have accepted that my initial start might have to be NYC biglaw though.
-Your general career goals
DC Biglaw to eventual in house somewhere. I have a non phd patent qual (BS physics) but it seems that will be of little worth.
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
176 (one take) and 3.7 (GPA distorted slightly)
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 4:16 pm
by transferror
Did you apply late? I'd think a 176/3.7 would have pulled at least 120-150k from somewhere in the T14.
Anyway, UVA for under 75k + ties to South for generic biglaw is a great outcome. No reason to pay the extra $$
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 4:23 pm
by aibohphobia
I didn't apply to some of the t14 that may have given me $$$ (northwestern, georgetown, Michigan) but some who seemed like likely candidates didn't really put forth much either so I'm not too sure what happened (Cornell 90k, ut 45k and oos tution). I am basically an ORM and I do have some other areas of my app that are weaker though. Most schools that were likely to give me money I applied to pre-december but I threw in some hail mary's post december.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 4:40 pm
by envisciguy
I don't know the poll you're referencing, but I'm not sure it's as big a difference as it might seem considering that 65% of the Columbia class goes to work in NY and the VAST majority of high ranking Vault firms are located in NY. So sure, Columbia might send more students to highly ranked Vault firms, but I'd assume a big chunk of that is due to self-selection. UVA sends a number of people to NY, but there are a good number of students for which NY is the last place they want to be. For a personal anecdote, I turned down two V10 NY firms to go to lower Vault ranked firm in a southern market.
If you're from the south and NY is near the bottom of your list of places to work, I think UVA is a pretty easy choice, though I'm obviously biased as a UVA student.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 4:54 pm
by ILoveYou
Non-UVA student here to offer a less clearly biased perspective.
Go to UVA, no question. If NYC is on the bottom of your list, and your ties are in the South, it's the easy choice at that price difference.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 5:00 pm
by Tiago Splitter
I think you should go to UVA even if you were born and raised in NYC and only want to work there, but how does the COA difference end up being so large?
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 7:12 pm
by aibohphobia
Tiago Splitter wrote:I think you should go to UVA even if you were born and raised in NYC and only want to work there, but how does the COA difference end up being so large?
CLS had 5k/yr more in tuition and i added 4k/yr to my room and board and 1k/yr in personal expenses for cls as well. So 10k/yr more in expenses and 40k less scholarship total for a difference of 70k. At time of repayment including interest according to Law school transparency that' what i got. My totals for the initial year roughly matched each schools posted COA.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:04 pm
by Mack.Hambleton
1. Reapply and go to T14 for free
2. UVA if you aren't going to do that and want to burn 100 thousand dollars for some reason
You shouldn't be going to a lower T14 on only a half scholarship with those numbers
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:11 pm
by OhBoyOhBortles
Mack.Hambleton wrote:1. Reapply and go to T14 for free
2. UVA if you aren't going to do that and want to burn 100 thousand dollars for some reason
You shouldn't be going to a lower T14 on only a half scholarship with those numbers
Should definitely have better options. If you have to go this year, UVA. (but you don't)
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:43 pm
by jbagelboy
I think you should definitely reapply. You should be getting full rides with those numbers.
I don't understand why UVA is so favored here. you're getting 30k/30k/30k from UVA and 20k/20k/10k toward CLS. So your scholarship is only $10k more the first two years and $20k more the final year than at CLS. I think Columbia is totally justified with these prices. The difference in placement power is not attributable to self selection.
The large discrepancy in price beyond $40k is in part cost of living. Yes, it costs more to live in manhattan. There's a reason for that: it's a much more highly desirable city. If you want to live in New York, you pay to live in new york. If you want to live in Charlottesville, you pay a lot less to live there, and it makes no sense to pay extra to live in New York.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:56 pm
by Mack.Hambleton
Entirely subjective whether it's more desirable or not, I know plenty of people who would rather live in cville than Morningside heights at equal cost..
And how is columbia worth 90k more than UVA for generic biglaw? Yes placement is better but idk about 90 thousand dollars better
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 9:35 pm
by downbeat14
OP, we have shockingly similar numbers and I'm really surprised these are your best options, particularly after negotiations. Are you amenable to sitting out and applying next cycle super early? I think you could get massive money at T14s (plus could spend the year saving up for 1L living expenses). Or you could likely get H if you want that (at least use for nego leverage), particularly with some WE or volunteer PI stuff.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 9:49 pm
by swampman
jbagelboy wrote:I think you should definitely reapply. You should be getting full rides with those numbers.
I don't understand why UVA is so favored here. you're getting 30k/30k/30k from UVA and 20k/20k/10k toward CLS. So your scholarship is only $10k more the first two years and $20k more the final year than at CLS. I think Columbia is totally justified with these prices. The difference in placement power is not attributable to self selection.
The large discrepancy in price beyond $40k is in part cost of living. Yes, it costs more to live in manhattan. There's a reason for that: it's a much more highly desirable city. If you want to live in New York, you pay to live in new york. If you want to live in Charlottesville, you pay a lot less to live there, and it makes no sense to pay extra to live in New York.
Who cares that the discrepancy in COA is due to cost of living? Debt is debt whether it came from tuition or living expenses, and he's going to have to pay it off either way.
But yeah, OP should reapply.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 10:12 pm
by aibohphobia
Mack.Hambleton wrote:1. Reapply and go to T14 for free
2. UVA if you aren't going to do that and want to burn 100 thousand dollars for some reason
You shouldn't be going to a lower T14 on only a half scholarship with those numbers
well I have a major c&f issue that means my cycle is harder to find comparable data for. I would reapply in a heartbeat if I thought It would improve my chances but I'm just not sure it would. At that point I would just have a year of reduced earning potential.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 10:17 pm
by Mack.Hambleton
You didn't apply to like half the T14 so I'm not sure how positive you can be about that
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 11:19 pm
by 03152016
aibohphobia wrote:Mack.Hambleton wrote:1. Reapply and go to T14 for free
2. UVA if you aren't going to do that and want to burn 100 thousand dollars for some reason
You shouldn't be going to a lower T14 on only a half scholarship with those numbers
well I have a major c&f issue that means my cycle is harder to find comparable data for. I would reapply in a heartbeat if I thought It would improve my chances but I'm just not sure it would. At that point I would just have a year of reduced earning potential.
prob doesn't matter unless it's big enough to cause problems w/ bar admission
i've spoken to admins about this
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 11:23 pm
by hill1334
swampman wrote:jbagelboy wrote:I think you should definitely reapply. You should be getting full rides with those numbers.
I don't understand why UVA is so favored here. you're getting 30k/30k/30k from UVA and 20k/20k/10k toward CLS. So your scholarship is only $10k more the first two years and $20k more the final year than at CLS. I think Columbia is totally justified with these prices. The difference in placement power is not attributable to self selection.
The large discrepancy in price beyond $40k is in part cost of living. Yes, it costs more to live in manhattan. There's a reason for that: it's a much more highly desirable city. If you want to live in New York, you pay to live in new york. If you want to live in Charlottesville, you pay a lot less to live there, and it makes no sense to pay extra to live in New York.
Who cares that the discrepancy in COA is due to cost of living? Debt is debt whether it came from tuition or living expenses, and he's going to have to pay it off either way.
But yeah, OP should reapply.
There is a middle ground in between your two positions. Debt is not debt. Debt is created by the spending of money, and the spending of money can be either objectively or subjectively better or worse depending on what that money was spent on (e.g., one could spend $10,000 on booze or one could spend $10,000 investing in a startup that leads one to make a million dollars). As a result, it could very well be worthwhile for someone to go into more debt in order to live in New York City than to live in Charlottesville as they will get more enjoyment out of living in NYC (and will therefore get more subjective value out of that debt). Regardless, their comes a point where the debt becomes too great to warrant such justifications, and I believe this is one such situation.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 1:10 am
by WeeBey
reapply and get a dilliard.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 1:26 am
by Hikikomorist
WeeBey wrote:reapply and get a dilliardYP.
Re: Columbia ($) vs. UVA ($$)
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:10 am
by Mack.Hambleton
WeeBey wrote:reapply and get a dilliard.
I'd say best chances at CNMDCN. Chicago Penn and UVA usually go for the real high GPAs