Darrow vs. Yale Forum

[jbagelboy]

I've never understood parents who are super involved in where their adult children are going to grad school. My parents would have absolutely no idea what T14 or T3 or whatever is. Of course, they are academics with doctoral degrees from these schools and teach at them so they know better than almost anyone the universities and their reputations. Push comes to shove, they would probably have a list but I haven't bothered to ask them about it; also it wouldn't be law school specific.

OP should go to Yale.

[pancakes3]

I've never understood parents who are super involved in where their adult children are going to grad school.

Improper context aside, to your parents, you'll:

[youtube]LfRNRymrv9k[/youtube]

[UnicornHunter]

Darrow

I assume the OP is just going to do the big law drone scene...

This assumption doesnt necessarily hold. Yes with M this assumption is fine bc that's exactly what will happen. But from Y there is a much better chance something unicornesque opens. M forecloses (virtually, save very top of class) that possibility. If OP decides in a year either clerkship/academia/human rights is what they want to do then they will have a much more uphill battle from M.

A clerkship is a one year job. Academia and human rights require making huge sacrafices and going out of your way to gun for them- even from Yale. It is absolutely ass backwards to tell someone to go to Yale if they're not sure what they want to do because it will work itself out. If OP is passionate about something and they only want to go to law school to work in that field, then it may make sense to pay for the boost Yale gives. OP does not seem like they're in that position.

[anyriotgirl]

yale and smiley face grades are pretty cool, but I would rather have the flexibility of no debt. no debt is the best COAP imo

[downbeat14]

Darrow

I assume the OP is just going to do the big law drone scene...

This assumption doesnt necessarily hold. Yes with M this assumption is fine bc that's exactly what will happen. But from Y there is a much better chance something unicornesque opens. M forecloses (virtually, save very top of class) that possibility. If OP decides in a year either clerkship/academia/human rights is what they want to do then they will have a much more uphill battle from M.

A clerkship is a one year job. Academia and human rights require making huge sacrafices and going out of your way to gun for them- even from Yale. It is absolutely ass backwards to tell someone to go to Yale if they're not sure what they want to do because it will work itself out. If OP is passionate about something and they only want to go to law school to work in that field, then it may make sense to pay for the boost Yale gives. OP does not seem like they're in that position.

Lol. When did I say it will work itself out? That's kind of a stretch, don't you think?

You are right about clerking, except dont forget it's way more likely from Y and opens up opportunities for more interesting jobs.

The other two of OPs stated preferences are things where Y>>>>>>M. To me it doesn't sound like OP would be super excited about ending up as a big firm drone (they can correct me if I'm wrong here). M virtually guarantees that whereas Y makes it so that the other more interesting work OP is interested in becomes an actual possibility, albeit of course something that will take hard work and sacrifice, even from Y.

I just think it's odd how everyone just assumes that everyone else is just going to end up in biglaw, so stop dreaming. Sounds like a lot of jaded cynicism to me.

[smaug]

yale and smiley face grades are pretty cool, but I would rather have the flexibility of no debt. no debt is the best COAP imo

In general this is true, but Yale students do have access to superlative outcomes that others don't.

if it were H/S I'd say the Darrow. Yale is Yale. It's a hell of a lot of money, but it's different quality of credential.

[jbagelboy]

yale and smiley face grades are pretty cool, but I would rather have the flexibility of no debt. no debt is the best COAP imo

In general this is true, but Yale students do have access to superlative outcomes that others don't.

if it were H/S I'd say the Darrow. Yale is Yale. It's a hell of a lot of money, but it's different quality of credential.

these were my thoughts as well, but even more pressingly for me, Michigan is Michigan. if this was ruby versus yale I'd say chicago.

[kartelite]

Right now I'm leaning towards Yale.

looks like you said it yourself. yale is yale. the cynic in me says that most people faced with your decision will go to yale. congrats

Agreed. You can't get into the Yale Club if you go Michigan, so this is really a no brainer

How about $$ at UVA? Also, you get to go to the Yale Club.

[BigZuck]

Darrow

I assume the OP is just going to do the big law drone scene...

This assumption doesnt necessarily hold. Yes with M this assumption is fine bc that's exactly what will happen. But from Y there is a much better chance something unicornesque opens. M forecloses (virtually, save very top of class) that possibility. If OP decides in a year either clerkship/academia/human rights is what they want to do then they will have a much more uphill battle from M.

A clerkship is a one year job. Academia and human rights require making huge sacrafices and going out of your way to gun for them- even from Yale. It is absolutely ass backwards to tell someone to go to Yale if they're not sure what they want to do because it will work itself out. If OP is passionate about something and they only want to go to law school to work in that field, then it may make sense to pay for the boost Yale gives. OP does not seem like they're in that position.

Lol. When did I say it will work itself out? That's kind of a stretch, don't you think?

You are right about clerking, except dont forget it's way more likely from Y and opens up opportunities for more interesting jobs.

The other two of OPs stated preferences are things where Y>>>>>>M. To me it doesn't sound like OP would be super excited about ending up as a big firm drone (they can correct me if I'm wrong here). M virtually guarantees that whereas Y makes it so that the other more interesting work OP is interested in becomes an actual possibility, albeit of course something that will take hard work and sacrifice, even from Y.

I just think it's odd how everyone just assumes that everyone else is just going to end up in biglaw, so stop dreaming. Sounds like a lot of jaded cynicism to me.

It takes a certain type to want to be an academic. The OP doesn't strike me as that, based on what little info was provided. "Academia sounds cool" isn't enough for me to think 200K debt is worth it. But I dunno, maybe this person truly has a THIRST for the ACADEMY. Human rights? Bleh. Clerkship? Bleh. If it was someone who really sounded interested in that stuff, sure. I just didn't get that sense from the OP.

We can all argue for it for multiple pages I guess. Seems like there's two solid camps here. If the OP really does want to mount a unicorn, they should go to Yale. If they don't/won't do that stuff, save the money and go to Michigan. EZ game.

[anyriotgirl]

Yeah I'm with Zuck on this one. OP really strikes me as the type of person who will be thinking "well I guess I'd better do OCI" around this time next year. Sure, yale would help with that, but for full sticker price? I would rather have all of my BIGLAW money.

[downbeat14]

It takes a certain type to want to be an academic. The OP doesn't strike me as that, based on what little info was provided. "Academia sounds cool" isn't enough for me to think 200K debt is worth it. But I dunno, maybe this person truly has a THIRST for the ACADEMY. Human rights? Bleh. Clerkship? Bleh. If it was someone who really sounded interested in that stuff, sure. I just didn't get that sense from the OP.

We can all argue for it for multiple pages I guess. Seems like there's two solid camps here. If the OP really does want to mount a unicorn, they should go to Yale. If they don't/won't do that stuff, save the money and go to Michigan. EZ game.

Fair points here.

OP, how much time do you have again? I think you should really do some soul searching about what you really want here. Doubtful there is sufficient time to really clarify things, but worty considering.

Just make sure that the additional opportunities a Y degree affords will actually benefit you towards something you are willing to work hard and passionate for. If your interest in those things are casual, give the opp to someone with more passion for those things and save your cash for some mutual funds.

Good luck either way.

[downbeat14]

Yeah I'm with Zuck on this one. OP really strikes me as the type of person who will be thinking "well I guess I'd better do OCI" around this time next year. Sure, yale would help with that, but for full sticker price? I would rather have all of my BIGLAW money.

OP is getting the first year of tuition paid if they choose Y. So not full sticker. May not matter for your assessment, but def something to take into account.

[cron1834]

Darrow. OP's goals are all over the place.

Also, academia is a shit market right now; lawprof jobs aren't growing on trees even for Yalies. Schools are "consolidating" and increasing numbers of faculty are "voluntarily retiring." Even during good times these hiring markets are disturbingly arbitrary/irrational.

[anyriotgirl]

Yeah I'm with Zuck on this one. OP really strikes me as the type of person who will be thinking "well I guess I'd better do OCI" around this time next year. Sure, yale would help with that, but for full sticker price? I would rather have all of my BIGLAW money.

OP is getting the first year of tuition paid if they choose Y. So not full sticker. May not matter for your assessment, but def something to take into account.

Parent money is still real money

[Clemenceau]

Tls debt averseness is incredible ITT

[Actus Reus]

2 pages of nonsense. Yale and don't look back. Michigan is barely T14 anymore. The simple lay prestige of yale will allow you to get into many other fields - nobody knows wtf Darrow is anyways outside of law

[cron1834]

2 pages of nonsense. Yale and don't look back. Michigan is barely T14 anymore. The simple lay prestige of yale will allow you to get into many other fields - nobody knows wtf Darrow is anyways outside of law

Yes, because it's the lay prestige of the Darrow that people should care about, not the free school.

GTFO.

[Mack.Hambleton]

2 pages of nonsense. Yale and don't look back. Michigan is barely T14 anymore. The simple lay prestige of yale will allow you to get into many other fields - nobody knows wtf Darrow is anyways outside of law

[Actus Reus]

Free law school where poster might not get the job they want. Yale will guaranteed allow poster to pay that debt off with the legal professions golden ticket. Lemme know next time MBB or i-banks go to Michigan and recruit. Or any other profession where people appreciate the name of Yale versus a state school. If poster doesn't know they want to do biglaw, Yale is the only choice.

[Vursz]

Do you want to go to a school where you have to really push for what seems, from your OP, to be a second-tier goal for you at best (i.e. biglaw)? Or would you rather have biglaw as a (relatively guaranteed) baseline and expend that effort on pursuing your more exotic goals? The fact that COAP exists will shield you from ever ending up in a "tons of debt and no way to pay it back" situation.

Go to Yale.

(Also, for the record, the idea that everyone's stuck on a biglaw death march at YLS is laughable. Many students end up going into non-Wall Street careers (starting nonprofits, writing books, working on campaigns, going into government, etc.) and COAP will give you the financial freedom to do that. Sure, you might not have as much raw capital amassed as someone who gunned for biglaw from day 1, but the odds of finding a legitimately fulfilling career seem much higher here. That's something TLS really undervalues.)

[jbagelboy]

Free law school where poster might not get the job they want. Yale will guaranteed allow poster to pay that debt off with the legal professions golden ticket. Lemme know next time MBB or i-banks go to Michigan and recruit. Or any other profession where people appreciate the name of Yale versus a state school. If poster doesn't know they want to do biglaw, Yale is the only choice.

michigan is a finance feeder dude

[Paul Campos]

BIGLAW WITH NO DEBT = Good outcome for people who have the option of going to a top school, despite the basic awfulness of working for a big firm, because the freedom to bail at any time makes all the difference.

BIGLAW WITH BIG DEBT = Bad outcome if you have any kind of reasonable career alternative, because you are now a slave to the debt, which makes a job that's often hard to tolerate under the best of circumstances much harder yet.

BIGLAW WITH BIG DEBT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED COMPLETELY = Way worse than #2 for what should be obvious reasons.

The downside of YLS here is #3. That's a long way down, and it's also the single most likely outcome.

[Actus Reus]

BIGLAW WITH NO DEBT = Good outcome for people who have the option of going to a top school, despite the basic awfulness of working for a big firm, because the freedom to bail at any time makes all the difference.

BIGLAW WITH BIG DEBT = Bad outcome if you have any kind of reasonable career alternative, because you are now a slave to the debt, which makes a job that's often hard to tolerate under the best of circumstances much harder yet.

BIGLAW WITH BIG DEBT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED COMPLETELY = Way worse than #2 for what should be obvious reasons.

The downside of YLS here is #3. That's a long way down, and it's also the single most likely outcome.

Biglaw at Michigan is not the assurance that it used to be

[ryangreenspan]

The credited response is to sit out this cycle and retake. You had a good run, but it could be a lot better with 1 or 2 more points.

Disclaimer: high school junior

[asdlfjsafn]

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