Page 1 of 2
Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:12 am
by rks92
Hi guys,
Update: Thank you for the quick and candid responses!
Would really appreciate input and feedback regarding University of Minnesota and William & Mary. I've got scholarships for both and the rest of the money covered (lets assume money isn't part of the decision making).
- Currently considering University of Minnesota and William & Mary; am waitlisted at BU, Emory, Washington U, U of Washington. Still waiting to hear back from Fordham and Vanderbilt .
- UMN COA taking away the 80K scholarship = 123,00
- W&M COA taking away the 24K scholarship = 180,000
(these are not that surprising to me considering Im an international student)
- My dad will be paying for my schooling (I am incredibly lucky). I'd like to consider the decision without the financing aspect of it as well.
- I'm from Hong Kong, studied that the University of Michigan and I currently work in NYC in an investment start up. I don't have ties, but I'd like to work in a bit city/east coast in general.
- I haven't nailed down what kind of law I want to get into, but I think likely corporate.
- LSAT 165, GPA 3.6.
- Took the LSAT twice.
Given my (lack of) citizenship, there are visa issues for me coming out of this, and so job prospects are key because I can;t even be in the running for the visa lottery (H1B) without a job.
Hope this is enough information and thanks in advance!
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:18 am
by BigZuck
You have to answer these questions before people can really help you here:
In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide all of the following:
-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT
Neither of these are good options for the markets you mentioned, these schools don't reliably place into those areas.
Go ahead and answer all those questions and then people can give you advice
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:19 am
by CanadianWolf
If you had to select one of these two schools for a job on the east coast, it should be Wm. & Mary. If you are targeting DC/NYC/Boston, then you should attend a T-14 law school.
To which law schools have you been offered admission ?
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:04 am
by cron1834
What kind of work do you want and where do you want to do it? "Neither" is probably the answer here.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:09 am
by chuckbass
cron1834 wrote:What kind of work do you want and where do you want to do it? "Neither" is probably the answer here.
Neither is definitely the answer here
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:13 am
by cron1834
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:09 am
by Winston1984
Surprised you were waitlisted at those schools. But yeah. You should retake the LSAT or change your goals.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:11 am
by OhBoyOhBortles
Definitely going to need to retake here.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:26 pm
by chuckbass
If you want to do law school, you need to retake and go to a school that will get you NYC biglaw b/c that is your best shot at getting a visa. If you pick either of the two schools that you're considering, you're shooting yourself in both feet and in three years you'll be in a worse position than you are in now (which sounds pretty great fwiw).
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:49 pm
by pancakes3
She can't sit out with her visa issue, or at least it is not a run-of-the-mill-sit-out advice. OP should have come in earlier bc that list of applied-to schools is just a mess. WM may ostensibly be the lesser of two evils here but that is a terrible amount of debt.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:50 pm
by arewevoting
maybe i don't understand this visa process, but why is NYC biglaw the only way OP could get a job that qualifies for the lottery? obviously it's OP's preference, and I think it's possible, but even if OP doesn't, there are certainly other options to be had on the table, right? (and I don't mean just finding an American spouse haha)
i think the choice to attend this cycle is less risky than the nay-sayers on this thread are jumping on, particular because OP's Dad is footing the bill. Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country. Not to mention I think Minneappolis is pretty sick (I'm from the east, don't know how to spell it despite two visits).
Also surprised about the BU waitlist.
Just want to give a glimmer of light amongst this thread of of darkness.
As always, though, you could never go wrong with a retake (not arguing against that strategy).
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:52 pm
by Traynor Brah
scottidsntknow wrote:cron1834 wrote:What kind of work do you want and where do you want to do it? "Neither" is probably the answer here.
Neither is definitely the answer here
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:53 pm
by arewevoting
pancakes3 wrote:She can't sit out with her visa issue, or at least it is not a run-of-the-mill-sit-out advice. OP should have come in earlier bc that list of applied-to schools is just a mess. WM may ostensibly be the lesser of two evils here but that is a terrible amount of debt.
if zero debt is terrible debt, then my future is apocalyptic
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:54 pm
by BigZuck
arewevoting wrote:maybe i don't understand this visa process, but why is NYC biglaw the only way OP could get a job that qualifies for the lottery? obviously it's OP's preference, and I think it's possible, but even if OP doesn't, there are certainly other options to be had on the table, right? (and I don't mean just finding an American spouse haha)
i think the choice to attend this cycle is less risky than the nay-sayers on this thread are jumping on, particular because OP's Dad is footing the bill. Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country. Not to mention I think Minneappolis is pretty sick (I'm from the east, don't know how to spell it despite two visits).
Also surprised about the BU waitlist.
Just want to give a glimmer of light amongst this thread of of darkness.
As always, though, you could never go wrong with a retake (not arguing against that strategy).
What other options do you have in mind?
What do you mean by a Minnesota degree being "transferable" and what is your basis for that statement?
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:57 pm
by arewevoting
BigZuck wrote:arewevoting wrote:maybe i don't understand this visa process, but why is NYC biglaw the only way OP could get a job that qualifies for the lottery? obviously it's OP's preference, and I think it's possible, but even if OP doesn't, there are certainly other options to be had on the table, right? (and I don't mean just finding an American spouse haha)
i think the choice to attend this cycle is less risky than the nay-sayers on this thread are jumping on, particular because OP's Dad is footing the bill. Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country. Not to mention I think Minneappolis is pretty sick (I'm from the east, don't know how to spell it despite two visits).
Also surprised about the BU waitlist.
Just want to give a glimmer of light amongst this thread of of darkness.
As always, though, you could never go wrong with a retake (not arguing against that strategy).
What other options do you have in mind?
What do you mean by a Minnesota degree being "transferable" and what is your basis for that statement?
i mean other legal jobs that are not NYC-biglaw jobs...
my basis for the other statement is that UM is a top twenty law school
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:02 pm
by pancakes3
I'm assuming OP is on OPT right now - basically a 1 year grace period post UG to find sponsorship so retake is out of the question, unless he/she retakes in China. Then post-grad, to find sponsorship, the sponsor job basically has to prove that OP brings a skill that a native grad doesn't bring to the table (probably Chinese skillz and not sure that Cantonese is as strong a sell as Mandarin) and is irreplaceable in order to get a work visa -> green card -> citizenship. The chances of that being plausible anywhere outside of biglaw are slim/none. On top of that, it's a lottery. So, WM but it's a chance on a chance.
*debt was the wrong word. $180k is still a lot of RMB.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:08 pm
by rks92
Thanks for the responses! Lots to think about.
I understand what a lot of you are saying, the thing is that if I don't win the lottery this time around (my company applied for it -- will find out in July/Aug) I have to have a plan for staying here. At the same time, if both schools and any others I'm waitlisted on do not give me a good change at employment and are effectively a waste of time I definitely need to consider that too.
Either way it'll be debt free for me, and I'd feel awful if my dad spent all this money and I went to a school that didn't have great prospects for me.
And yes, I'm on OPT with the H1B applied for!
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:10 pm
by arewevoting
pancakes3 wrote:I'm assuming OP is on OPT right now - basically a 1 year grace period post UG to find sponsorship so retake is out of the question, unless he/she retakes in China. Then post-grad, to find sponsorship, the sponsor job basically has to prove that OP brings a skill that a native grad doesn't bring to the table (probably Chinese skillz and not sure that Cantonese is as strong a sell as Mandarin) and is irreplaceable in order to get a work visa -> green card -> citizenship. The chances of that being plausible anywhere outside of biglaw are slim/none. On top of that, it's a lottery. So, WM but it's a chance on a chance.
*debt was the wrong word. $180k is still a lot of RMB.
clearly I know nothing about the process then haha
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:23 pm
by hala92
scottidsntknow wrote:If you want to do law school, you need to retake and go to a school that will get you NYC biglaw b/c that is your best shot at getting a visa. If you pick either of the two schools that you're considering, you're shooting yourself in both feet and in three years you'll be in a worse position than you are in now (which sounds pretty great fwiw).
Then what if UMN offers a full scholarship? Is it then worth attending? The deposit deadline is today and I can't make my mind. I am an international student from China. I hope to stay in US after graduation.
Ps: Waitlisted and held at t14. 169/three times, but should be able to take one more time in this Oct.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:31 pm
by BigZuck
arewevoting wrote:BigZuck wrote:arewevoting wrote:maybe i don't understand this visa process, but why is NYC biglaw the only way OP could get a job that qualifies for the lottery? obviously it's OP's preference, and I think it's possible, but even if OP doesn't, there are certainly other options to be had on the table, right? (and I don't mean just finding an American spouse haha)
i think the choice to attend this cycle is less risky than the nay-sayers on this thread are jumping on, particular because OP's Dad is footing the bill. Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country. Not to mention I think Minneappolis is pretty sick (I'm from the east, don't know how to spell it despite two visits).
Also surprised about the BU waitlist.
Just want to give a glimmer of light amongst this thread of of darkness.
As always, though, you could never go wrong with a retake (not arguing against that strategy).
What other options do you have in mind?
What do you mean by a Minnesota degree being "transferable" and what is your basis for that statement?
i mean other legal jobs that are not NYC-biglaw jobs...
my basis for the other statement is that UM is a top twenty law school
Which specific ones sponsor a visa for an international?
How are you defining "transferable"? And what does US News have to do with "transferability?"
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:34 pm
by chuckbass
hala92 wrote:scottidsntknow wrote:If you want to do law school, you need to retake and go to a school that will get you NYC biglaw b/c that is your best shot at getting a visa. If you pick either of the two schools that you're considering, you're shooting yourself in both feet and in three years you'll be in a worse position than you are in now (which sounds pretty great fwiw).
Then what if UMN offers a full scholarship? Is it then worth attending? The deposit deadline is today and I can't make my mind. I am an international student from China. I hope to stay in US after graduation.
Ps: Waitlisted and held at t14. 169/three times, but should be able to take one more time in this Oct.
It's not about the money, it's about the fact that as an international your best shot at a visa is NYC biglaw, and even then it's more complicated and harder to get. I wouldn't bet three years of my life on UMN getting me NYC biglaw.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:08 pm
by cron1834
169 should get you T14 and thus NYC biglaw possibilities. The 165 is in a tougher spot, and the odds of getting the job you want from UMN are very poor. That would likely be a waste of your dad's money.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:47 pm
by liberalartslawyer
Best solution:
Go to W&M (say thanks to dad!) and find a husband/wife type your first year. If you don't have a good job lined up, a three year track record will be enough to have evidence of an "established" relationship so that you can get citizenship via marriage.
Mostly kidding...
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:03 pm
by bretby
arewevoting wrote:pancakes3 wrote:I'm assuming OP is on OPT right now - basically a 1 year grace period post UG to find sponsorship so retake is out of the question, unless he/she retakes in China. Then post-grad, to find sponsorship, the sponsor job basically has to prove that OP brings a skill that a native grad doesn't bring to the table (probably Chinese skillz and not sure that Cantonese is as strong a sell as Mandarin) and is irreplaceable in order to get a work visa -> green card -> citizenship. The chances of that being plausible anywhere outside of biglaw are slim/none. On top of that, it's a lottery. So, WM but it's a chance on a chance.
*debt was the wrong word. $180k is still a lot of RMB.
clearly I know nothing about the process then haha
I think the real issue is not the proving skills part of the Visa process - that requirement is pretty much a joke now - rather, it's the time & expense to the company of sponsoring a visa. A big firm will be much more willing/able to do this than a small firm.
Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:38 pm
by jbagelboy
arewevoting wrote:Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country.
it may be a quality law school, but no, it's not transferable.
