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Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:23 pm
by mela36
I'm in somewhat of a pickle. It's a good pickle to be in, but a pickle nonetheless.
My goal is possibly corporate law or IP, but not entirely committed to either as I'm still just a lowly 0L. I work full time dealing with labor and employment relations, and plan on attending part-time for at least the first year. Here's what's on the table:
Fordham: $20000 annual scholarship
st. John's: full tuition
NYLS: full tuition
Brooklyn: 80% tuition
I know that if I choose one of the lower ranked schools, I'll have to bust my ass to make law review, high class ranking, etc in order to make up for the not so prestigious name. Therefore if I go that route I'll quit my job after 1L to devote all my time to school and take out loans to supplement income (my husband works and will also help out, but the loss of my current income will be substantial.) On the other hand, if I go with Fordham then I'll continue my full time job and only take out loans for tuition. At the end of the day, it's between 4 years at Fordham with debt totaling ~$85k, or 3-3.5 years at either SJU or NYLS for ~$40k. I currently have undergrad loans being paid off at $500 a month, so the goal is to minimize debt but maximize future job prospects. Is Fordham really going to be that more beneficial to me in the long run for the extra $40k?
Any insight/thoughts would greatly be appreciated. And to answer your question, no I'm not willing to retake for several reasons.
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:31 pm
by starry eyed
as much as i hate fordham after my round of negotiating with them, i will have to say yea it's definitely worth the extra $$
i know this is probably a question you don't want to hear, but what are the reasons you have for not wanting to retake? (i don't judge)
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:32 pm
by BigZuck
What do you mean by corporate law or IP law?
What kind of salary are you hoping to get out of law school?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:45 pm
by mela36
starry eyed wrote:as much as i hate fordham after my round of negotiating with them, i will have to say yea it's definitely worth the extra $$
i know this is probably a question you don't want to hear, but what are the reasons you have for not wanting to retake? (i don't judge)
Well first, I don't want to lose my momentum. Second, I'm staying in NYC, so the next best options after Fordham are NYU and Columbia. My GPA was 3.63, and I scored a 164 on my first try at the LSAT, so I'm sure I could try and bring that score up a bit if I wanted to try for those schools, but I'd likely be paying close to sticker unless I substantially increase my score, which is of course no guarantee. Finally, on a personal note, I'm in my late 20's. That's not old by any means, but the longer I wait, the worse my chances are of having a family...can't argue with science and genetics there.
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:47 pm
by starry eyed
mela36 wrote:starry eyed wrote:as much as i hate fordham after my round of negotiating with them, i will have to say yea it's definitely worth the extra $$
i know this is probably a question you don't want to hear, but what are the reasons you have for not wanting to retake? (i don't judge)
Well first, I don't want to lose my momentum. Second, I'm staying in NYC, so the next best options after Fordham are NYU and Columbia. My GPA was 3.63, and I
scored a 164 on my first try at the LSAT, so I'm sure I could try and bring that score up a bit if I wanted to try for those schools, but I'd likely be paying close to sticker unless I substantially increase my score, which is of course no guarantee. Finally, on a personal note, I'm in my late 20's. That's not old by any means, but the longer I wait, the worse my chances are of having a family...can't argue with science and genetics there.
was it your first try with or without practice? i mean had you studied for it? if so how long?
my diagnostics was much much lower than what i ended up with-same with everyone here
a 170 would get you a solid chance at NYU and Columbia
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:18 am
by mela36
starry eyed wrote:mela36 wrote:starry eyed wrote:as much as i hate fordham after my round of negotiating with them, i will have to say yea it's definitely worth the extra $$
i know this is probably a question you don't want to hear, but what are the reasons you have for not wanting to retake? (i don't judge)
Well first, I don't want to lose my momentum. Second, I'm staying in NYC, so the next best options after Fordham are NYU and Columbia. My GPA was 3.63, and I
scored a 164 on my first try at the LSAT, so I'm sure I could try and bring that score up a bit if I wanted to try for those schools, but I'd likely be paying close to sticker unless I substantially increase my score, which is of course no guarantee. Finally, on a personal note, I'm in my late 20's. That's not old by any means, but the longer I wait, the worse my chances are of having a family...can't argue with science and genetics there.
was it your first try with or without practice? i mean had you studied for it? if so how long?
my diagnostics was much much lower than what i ended up with-same with everyone here
a 170 would get you a solid chance at NYU and Columbia
It was my first official test. I studied for it a few months and took several PT's, but ended up scoring the highest on the actual test. I'm sure it would be a possibility to be able to get my score up, but again, I'm not considering re-taking at this point.
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:19 am
by rion91
i would reconsider a retake cuz that is a buttload of money your family is going to have to pay in the future
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:27 am
by chuckbass
rion91 wrote:i would reconsider a retake cuz that is a buttload of money your family is going to have to pay in the future
Yeah if you're adding a future family into the mix, you need to think about what happens if you're 200k in debt with no biglaw
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:28 pm
by BigZuck
BUMP:
BigZuck wrote:What do you mean by corporate law or IP law?
What kind of salary are you hoping to get out of law school?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:09 pm
by mela36
BigZuck wrote:BUMP:
BigZuck wrote:What do you mean by corporate law or IP law?
What kind of salary are you hoping to get out of law school?
I have a business background, so corporate/finance makes sense for me. Intellectual Property I know right now is a booming market, and it's an area of interest for me as well.
As far as salary goes, obviously the more the better. I'd like to make around $100k starting out. Based on the NALP reports for both Fordham and SJU, it appears that Fordham is my best shot at starting out earning that amount. But I also figure that even if I don't start at that salary with a degree from SJU, I can eventually work my way up anyway.
Does that answer your question?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:28 pm
by chuckbass
mela36 wrote:BigZuck wrote:BUMP:
BigZuck wrote:What do you mean by corporate law or IP law?
What kind of salary are you hoping to get out of law school?
I have a business background, so corporate/finance makes sense for me. Intellectual Property I know right now is a booming market, and it's an area of interest for me as well.
As far as salary goes, obviously the more the better. I'd like to make around $100k starting out. Based on the NALP reports for both Fordham and SJU, it appears that Fordham is my best shot at starting out earning that amount. But I also figure that even if I don't start at that salary with a degree from SJU, I can eventually work my way up anyway.
Does that answer your question?
So you're biglaw or bust is what you're saying?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:31 pm
by BigZuck
Do you have the qualifications to do IP?
How well do these schools place in the firms that do the types of corporate work you envision?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:33 pm
by OhBoyOhBortles
Retake seems like your best option. I can't speak from experience about family planning, but I'm fairly confident you'll be able to figure out when to fit in having a child or two even if you spend the next couple of/few months prepping for an LSAT take that could leave you with much better options for pursuing your goals (that don't really seem to exist outside of biglaw.)
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:46 pm
by mela36
Retaking just doesn't seem to be worth it for me. NYU and Columbia don't offer PT programs, and given their cost I would definitely want to keep my current role during school. I don't foresee myself doing well enough to warrant any huge scholarship money from those institutions. So, the next best school after those in NYC is Fordham.
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:47 pm
by chuckbass
BigZuck wrote:Do you have the qualifications to do IP?
How well do these schools place in the firms that do the types of corporate work you envision?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:59 pm
by mela36
scottidsntknow wrote:mela36 wrote:BigZuck wrote:BUMP:
BigZuck wrote:What do you mean by corporate law or IP law?
What kind of salary are you hoping to get out of law school?
I have a business background, so corporate/finance makes sense for me. Intellectual Property I know right now is a booming market, and it's an area of interest for me as well.
As far as salary goes, obviously the more the better. I'd like to make around $100k starting out. Based on the NALP reports for both Fordham and SJU, it appears that Fordham is my best shot at starting out earning that amount. But I also figure that even if I don't start at that salary with a degree from SJU, I can eventually work my way up anyway.
Does that answer your question?
So you're biglaw or bust is what you're saying?
If I commit to Fordham, then biglaw or bust because that's really their main advantage over the other schools aside from USN ranking. They place at almost 40% at biglaw, compared to 10-15% at the other contenders. I know 40% compared to other schools is not a lot, but again, I'm not looking to relocate and my PT options in NYC are limited.
OTOH, the benefit of going to one of the lower-tiered schools is that I wouldn't necessarily HAVE to commit to biglaw because I wouldn't have as much debt. My options for that salary range will be limited starting out, but I could still work my way up from a small to mid-size firm potentially.
Not sure if this is noteworthy or not, but according to LSN, Fordham has 70 firms that do OCI's vs. 20-30 at SJU. Any thoughts as to how important a role that would play in post-grad opportunities?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:05 pm
by rion91
You seem pretty set on Fordham, not sure why you're posting here if that's the case. Just know even if you raised your LSAT 3+ points you'll save your family thousands of dollars from tuition and thousands more on interest.
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:08 pm
by BigZuck
mela36 wrote:I could still work my way up from a small to mid-size firm potentially.
What are you basing this on?
mela36 wrote:Not sure if this is noteworthy or not, but according to LSN, Fordham has 70 firms that do OCI's vs. 20-30 at SJU. Any thoughts as to how important a role that would play in post-grad opportunities?
I would be kind of surprised if Fordham only has 70 firms at OCI, that sounds low. I don't know what that LSN figure is based on but I would take all that with a grain of salt.
Undoubtedly post-grad opportunities will be better at Fordham (but of course, that's all relative)
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:10 pm
by BigZuck
Also how well do Fordham PT students do at OCI compared to their full time brethren?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:10 pm
by Clearly
Unfortunately, Fordham isn't worth the cost, and the others aren't worth the time.
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:18 pm
by mela36
BigZuck wrote:Also how well do Fordham PT students do at OCI compared to their full time brethren?
I wish I knew - their employment stats don't separate PT from FT students.
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:23 pm
by BigZuck
mela36 wrote:BigZuck wrote:Also how well do Fordham PT students do at OCI compared to their full time brethren?
I wish I knew - their employment stats don't separate PT from FT students.
I think this is a good question to get the answer to before enrolling
Are you 100% positive you're doing what's best to get yourself where you ultimately want to go?
As opposed to working backwards and starting at "I will go to law school next year, it will be in NYC, and I will get a good job" and then trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?
Maybe law school next year and/or these schools aren't the ticket. Why can't that be a consideration?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:28 pm
by bretby
Tangentially related question: how do you access school-specific NALP reports?
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:39 pm
by mela36
bretby wrote:Tangentially related question: how do you access school-specific NALP reports?
Law School Transparency has them for the last 4 years:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/re ... -Database/
Re: Fordham discount or SJU Full??
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:40 pm
by togoornottogo
Here's what I am slightly confused about: you mention planning for a future family, so you want to go to Law School now, rather than waiting. However, you want to save money, so you plan to attend a school part time so that you can keep your debt load down. Finally, you want to earn decent money, hopefully breaking six figures.
BUT, Part-Time at Fordham would be 4 years, while Full-Time would be 3 years.
So if you attend Part Time for 4 years you would be looking 85K debt. To offset that you aim to be in the top 40% of the class at Fordham so that you can earn enough working in BigLaw to service your debt. Doesn't working full time put you at a disadvantage for Law School if it got in your way so much as to hold you back from achieving your potential on the LSAT? How could you handle working full time while competing against very bright students who do not have the disadvantage of a 40 hour work week. Maybe during lectures/cold-calling it wouldn't show, but I bet during exams it could be disastrous.
So why not potentially wait another year, get to 170 on the LSAT, enroll at Fordham fulltime. You still graduate on the same timeline as before, with less debt, and you aren't competing against people who have 40 more hours a week than you.
Edit: You are already above Fordham's Median GPA, so a terrific scholarship could be possible with just 3 more points on the LSAT (I tested out some hypotheticals on mylsn.info)