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[UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:32 am
by DetroitBL
**********************************************************UPDATE**********************************************************
Currently considering only the following options (in no particular order, listed with COA not including SA income, some savings):
UM ......... @ $94,000
NU ......... @ $96,000
Cornell ... @ $62,000
Also riding wait-lists at Columbia, Chicago, and Harvard.
Fully committed to Detroit BL but also extremely debt averse. Think I'd likely be able to lower my COL spending in Ithaca and maybe Ann Arbor but likely not in Chicago, so the cost discrepancy could be larger than depicted.
If I strike out in Detroit/SE Michigan, I'd prefer Chicago over NYC, though I realize that's also a tall order. If my best case scenario is Detroit and my worst is NYC, wouldn't the cheapest option (Cornell) be the clear winner? Yes, I know better chances at Detroit BL coming from UMich would be worth paying for, but I'm not convinced I'd be at that much of a disadvantage coming from NU or Cornell. True, the path is less trodden at the former and nonexistent at the latter, but I'd wager a lot of that can be attributed to self-selection. 30k is pretty significant in my eyes.
Thoughts?
********************************************************END UPDATE********************************************************
Considering (ranked in order of preference):
1) UM ............@ [deleted]
2) NU ............@ [deleted]
3) Berkeley ... @ $170,000 (waiting on merit award)
4) Cornell ......@ [deleted]
5) Duke ..........@ $145,000
6) WUSTL ......@ $40,000 (Dean's Fellow)
7) UIUC ..........@ $20,000
(WL at Chicago, and even if I get in there's no way I'd pay anywhere near sticker.)
The above numbers are for the total COA inclusive of scholarship, need grants, and personal/family contributions. All remaining costs will be debt financed.
From Michigan with strong ties to Detroit. Very weak (likely inconsequential) ties to Chicago, the Bay Area, and LA.
At present, the goal is BL in one of the following markets, ranked in order of preference:
1) Detroit
2) Chicago/the Bay Area
3) LA
4) NYC, though this would be a last resort
Michigan seems the obvious choice, and if I can get them to match one of the more generous scholarship offers I will matriculate there.
But I'm curious to hear from anyone with experience working Detroit BL(/ML) about the strength of UM compared to other T14s for people with preexisting ties to the area.
That is, are firms willing, or perhaps even eager, to hire grads from NU, Berkeley, Cornell, and/or Duke as long as they demonstrate a desire to put down roots and stay there long term? Detroit is hardly a top market for grads from these schools, so I'm wondering if coming from somewhere other than UM could actually set one apart from the herd of maize and blue.
If ties are enough (assuming, of course, that I have the grades), then my decision will come down to cost, and I'm rather debt-averse.
Thanks in advance for the input.
Re: Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:50 pm
by Sirius Blackstone
DetroitBL wrote:
Michigan seems the obvious choice
Bingo. Great outcome for your goals. Good luck in Ann Arbor.
Re: Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:02 pm
by TheOnePercent
Sirius Blackstone wrote:DetroitBL wrote:
Michigan seems the obvious choice
Bingo. Great outcome for your goals. Good luck in Ann Arbor.
Agreed. Not a Michigan fan generally, but at half-cost and when targeting Detroit (closest thing to a "home" market), sounds ideal.
Re: Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:22 pm
by umichman
I am a double wolverine and had a similar decision last year. I asked the question and got the following response. This was the right answer. I am a 1L and just got plum job in the state and I have lots of friends at t6 schools that didnt even get interviews at the same jobs i applied to because they didnt go to michigan. If you want to live in michigan, you get in to michigan, you want to work in michigan, and you can afford michigan, go to michigan.
"If what you are looking to get out of law school is a challenge, then I vote for UVA. UVA will give you the pleasure of fighting an uphill battle as you try to make your way back to your home state while accruing tens of thousands of dollars of nondischargeable debt. You will even be rewarded with a bonus challenge during on-campus interviews as you are required to convince employers in Michigan that you are loyal to their region.
If you are looking to take the coward's route, then I suppose you could stay in Michigan where you will accrue no debt and have a much easier time selling yourself as a Michigander during on-campus interviews.
In the end, it all depends on what you're looking to get out of your law school experience."
Re: Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:17 am
by DetroitBL
Thanks for the comments, figured UM would be the way to go.
@umichman: mind sharing info about your 1L job?
Re: Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:05 am
by Dog
I think UM is the right choice here. UM places decently in Chi/NY if Detroit doesn't work out. I don't know a ton about the firm's around here (I work in the D - but I'm an 0L) but I imagine you'd have a pretty clear advantage over Wayne State students.
Not sure if you applied there. I do know Detroit area applicants deciding between $$$ at Wayne and debt at UM are more common than a TLSer might think. Those stips at Wayne are pretty scary though.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:00 pm
by DetroitBL
Updated the OP. Have to make a decision within a few days.
Thoughts?
Re: Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:04 pm
by Kinky John
DetroitBL wrote:
Michigan seems the obvious choice
Re: Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:19 pm
by DetroitBL
Kinky John wrote:DetroitBL wrote:
Michigan seems the obvious choice
Care to elaborate?
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:29 pm
by Kinky John
Not sure what's changed since your original offer, but since you want detroit bl and are ok with nyc as a backup (and the price is good), Michigan. Basically what everyone else already said
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:58 pm
by Mack.Hambleton
Enjoy ann arbor
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:59 pm
by usn26
Michigan seems like the obvious choice here.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:38 pm
by cron1834
Kinky John wrote:Not sure what's changed since your original offer, but since you want detroit bl and are ok with nyc as a backup (and the price is good), Michigan. Basically what everyone else already said
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:53 pm
by yost
Michigan.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 8:09 pm
by metroidbum
.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:52 pm
by strugglebus
Michigan is definitely worth the 30k for your goals
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:15 am
by DetroitBL
metroidbum wrote:Definitely Michigan. NY being a last resort option takes away most of what makes Cornell strong, and Detroit firms will eagerly scoop up a Michigan kid at U of M. You could probably go back to MI from any of these three, but UM makes it easier. Plus, Ann Arbor is fantastic.
I get that the typical path would be UM to Detroit, but if, as you said (and this is also what I've been thinking), I could probably get back to Michigan from any of the three due to my strong ties and the fact that all of my options are T14s, why not save the extra 30k? Just because Ithaca < Ann Arbor (which for the record I agree with 100%)?
The way I see it, there could def be pros if I were to opt for Cornell:
(1) there would be way less competition for Detroit jobs,
(2) there's a good chance I'd be an interesting addition to a Detroit firm's "diversity", since I doubt they attract many Cornell grads, and
(3) I'd have a larger safety net in terms of landing a job in NYC if I strike out in Michigan.
Not saying these are strong enough reasons to pass up Michigan for that price, but I'm curious to hear more about people's reasons for recommending UM. It isn't encouraging to hear that UM grads at median have had trouble landing biglaw NYC. Since Detroit BL is hardly guaranteed even from UM, wouldn't it make sense to take the school offering the best worst case?
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:30 am
by Kinky John
DetroitBL wrote:
The way I see it, there could def be pros if I were to opt for Cornell:
(1) there would be way less competition for Detroit jobs,
(2) there's a good chance I'd be an interesting addition to a Detroit firm's "diversity", since I doubt they attract many Cornell grads, and
(3) I'd have a larger safety net in terms of landing a job in NYC if I strike out in Michigan.
Speaking from experience, that's not how getting a job works. I imagine it's similar in law but I can't speak to that.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:40 am
by Paul Campos
DetroitBL wrote:metroidbum wrote:Definitely Michigan. NY being a last resort option takes away most of what makes Cornell strong, and Detroit firms will eagerly scoop up a Michigan kid at U of M. You could probably go back to MI from any of these three, but UM makes it easier. Plus, Ann Arbor is fantastic.
I get that the typical path would be UM to Detroit, but if, as you said (and this is also what I've been thinking), I could probably get back to Michigan from any of the three due to my strong ties and the fact that all of my options are T14s, why not save the extra 30k? Just because Ithaca < Ann Arbor (which for the record I agree with 100%)?
The way I see it, there could def be pros if I were to opt for Cornell:
(1) there would be way less competition for Detroit jobs,
(2) there's a good chance I'd be an interesting addition to a Detroit firm's "diversity", since I doubt they attract many Cornell grads, and
(3) I'd have a larger safety net in terms of landing a job in NYC if I strike out in Michigan.
Not saying these are strong enough reasons to pass up Michigan for that price, but I'm curious to hear more about people's reasons for recommending UM. It isn't encouraging to hear that UM grads at median have had trouble landing biglaw NYC. Since Detroit BL is hardly guaranteed even from UM, wouldn't it make sense to take the school offering the best worst case?
You're way overthinking this. All law schools, even elite law schools, with the partial exception of HYS, have strong regional characteristics. Cornell would be a much better choice at present for NYC BL than Michigan, but for the same reasons Michigan is a much better choice for anything in Michigan than Cornell. Given your preferences Cornell makes no sense at all.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:16 am
by DetroitBL
Paul Campos wrote: You're way overthinking this. All law schools, even elite law schools, with the partial exception of HYS, have strong regional characteristics. Cornell would be a much better choice at present for NYC BL than Michigan, but for the same reasons Michigan is a much better choice for anything in Michigan than Cornell. Given your preferences Cornell makes no sense at all.
Thanks for the input; just trying to make sure I'm making the right choice. Glad to hear it's unanimous.
And thanks to all the above posters. Looks like I'm heading to Ann Arbor.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:11 pm
by lawschoolbound94
I'm from the Detroit area so I think I can answer.
The best school would be Wayne State. It's cheaper than UM. There's no reason to take out big loans just to practice in Detroit. Wayne is the local law school. UM would be too costly. MSU is 2nd to Wayne always.
But I'd just reconsider all together and practice in a different market. Anywhere is better than Michigan.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:17 pm
by metroidbum
.
Re: [UPDATED!] Best option for Detroit BL?
Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:24 pm
by strugglebus
lawschoolbound94 wrote:I'm from the Detroit area so I think I can answer.
The best school would be Wayne State. It's cheaper than UM. There's no reason to take out big loans just to practice in Detroit. Wayne is the local law school. UM would be too costly. MSU is 2nd to Wayne always.
But I'd just reconsider all together and practice in a different market. Anywhere is better than Michigan.
I hope you're not trying to make the argument that because lots of attorneys in the area went to Wayne, Wayne is the place to go. You can't just look at where the people in the desired career came from; you have to look at where the graduates of the school end up.