Top Law Schools

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If you want any sort of chance at biglaw, it pretty much has to be UCLA. Even then it's a stretch. Lucky I guess that your parents are gunna cover COA, but neither of these are ideal options.

Here's a comparison of the two on LST you should check out if you haven't already. Neither gives you a good shot at biglaw, but UCLA at least makes it a realistic possibility.

With those goals, retake/reapply and aim higher

BigZuck wrote:With those goals, retake/reapply and aim higher

^^This. Also, don't go to Hastings. Ever.

letoile wrote:Retaking / reapplying is not an option.

Why not. I see this so often and have yet to see a sound justification for it. Why is it not an option?

bjsesq wrote:

letoile wrote:Retaking / reapplying is not an option.

Why not. I see this so often and have yet to see a sound justification for it. Why is it not an option?

Maybe they've been caught cheating so many times that they're banned from LSAC test centers, much the same way that repeat card counters are banned from casinos.

rpupkin wrote:

bjsesq wrote:

letoile wrote:Retaking / reapplying is not an option.

Why not. I see this so often and have yet to see a sound justification for it. Why is it not an option?

Maybe they've been caught cheating so many times that they're banned from LSAC test centers, much the same way that repeat card counters are banned from casinos.

At least that would be something. All I've ever seen is, "You guys, I really don't want to wait because I already quit my job." So fucking what? Do entry level for a year, suck it up, and go to a better school.

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letoile wrote:I have taken the LSAT 3x and am not willing to wait two years to begin law school.

Don't go to law school. Why don't you study to be an electrician or some other profession with a likely better outcome in life?

letoile wrote:Ultimately want to practice in CA. Have ties. Enjoy both LA and SF.

Hastings scholarship is 105k with no stipulations.

Cost of attendance will be covered in full by family.

Professional goal is BigLaw.

Retaking / reapplying is not an option.

Thanks for any input!

Hastings and UCLA are so far away from each other in both rankings and employment prospects. Have you applied to any schools in the middle (USC, UCI, UCD) that would give you better employment prospects than Hastings but possibly more money than UCLA? Though, only around 30% of the graduating classes at both UCLA and USC get biglaw. What are your reasons for biglaw?

BiglawAssociate wrote:

letoile wrote:I have taken the LSAT 3x and am not willing to wait two years to begin law school.

Don't go to law school. Why don't you study to be an electrician or some other profession with a likely better outcome in life?

TLS is full of great advice, but why is this shit propagated? You might not think law is great, but the median US salary is 50k. If you can graduate law school debt-free and get a job with a a salary over 50k, you're better off than 50% of people in the US. That includes electricians, IT (like fix-my-printer IT, not IT managers), AC repair, mechanics, etc.

At times, it's ok to tell people law school is a bad option. But don't give some random alternative and say it's better; it's usually not. I don't know of any jobs where you can: make money, be happy, have lots of free time, doesn't require advanced degrees, doesn't require lots of luck (much more luck than needed for biglaw from Hastings). I see some idiots telling people to go start a business, like that's a better alternative to law school, or apply to business school when their GPA is too low for T14.

The median annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters was $49,140 in May 2012

You can also become a plumber without taking out 300k in loans and three years of your life

Well, we're talking a full ride at Hastings, and yeah, the median salary for those jobs is around 50k, but the maximum salary for those jobs is around 80k. I tended bar for a while, and if you're a good bartender in a high volume bar, you can make up to 300-400 in tips on a weekend night. Sounds great, right? Lots of money, chill in a bar, mix cocktails. But that's the best that's ever gonna get.

Maybe law school isn't the way to glory and riches for a lot of people, but neither is blue-collar work. Just don't offer that as an alternative. If you want job security and good pay, suggest a CPA. But that shit is more soul-wrenching than lawyer work.

There are only two objectively better alternatives, the rest are equally shitty:

- Get lucky as shit, and hop aboard a start-up that will vault you to the moon.

- Roll back time and get an engineering/finance degree.

how loaded is your family? like kanye west loaded? if it wouldn't strain your parents finances in the least, then sure go to UCLA. It's objectively stupid to pay sticker there but I mean, if your parents are super rich and you can do whatever you want, what gives? go for it.

although if you're in that position, TCR is still take the money they would spend on law school, move to Trieste for a year, eat a lot of carpaccio & seafood while getting with southern euro babes and then come back to take the LSAT later

I do have to agree that TLS's mantra of "get an entry level job to something awesome" is annoying as if it is the easiest thing in the world. I wouldn't consider it any easier than getting something out of a decent law school. Of course with those you don't have to go 6 figures more in debt and take 3 more years of schooling, so that part is correct. Just don't be like "yo dawg, just go the "easy" route or "find a decent job/WE for a year and then reapply", which might encourage those who can't find said job to go this year to a bad option

The Dark Shepard wrote:I do have to agree that TLS's mantra of "get an entry level job to something awesome" is annoying as if it is the easiest thing in the world. I wouldn't consider it any easier than getting something out of a decent law school. Of course with those you don't have to go 6 figures more in debt and take 3 more years of schooling, so that part is correct. Just don't be like "yo dawg, just go the "easy" route or "find a decent job/WE for a year and then reapply", which might encourage those who can't find said job to go this year to a bad option

The mantra is annoying because life is annoying. People who've been through this are telling you about their firsthand experiences; I'm sorry that reality doesn't jive with your view of how the world should work. My friends who started doing data-entry out of college are now moving up to mid-level management positions and making decent money; I'm making WAY less than they are working a couple federal clerkships, and I've already had to take on student loans and give up any shot at an income for three years. Sure, I'll jump ahead of them for the 2-3 years that I can last in biglaw, but after that, all bets are off. And I did the whole law route perfectly (T14 with a great scholly, killed law school, etc etc).

Do I wish I'd become a welder making bank in the Dakotas right now? Not really, because I still hope that my pitch perfect legal performance so far will pay off, but I'll tell you this, I sure as hell wasn't choosing between sticker at UCLA and Hastings. If I'd picked either of those options, I guarantee you I'd be dreaming about Williston Basin oil fields right now.

bruinfan10 wrote:

The Dark Shepard wrote:I do have to agree that TLS's mantra of "get an entry level job to something awesome" is annoying as if it is the easiest thing in the world. I wouldn't consider it any easier than getting something out of a decent law school. Of course with those you don't have to go 6 figures more in debt and take 3 more years of schooling, so that part is correct. Just don't be like "yo dawg, just go the "easy" route or "find a decent job/WE for a year and then reapply", which might encourage those who can't find said job to go this year to a bad option

The mantra is annoying because life is annoying. People who've been through this are telling you about their firsthand experiences; I'm sorry that reality doesn't jive with your view of how the world should work. My friends who started doing data-entry out of college are now moving up to mid-level management positions and making decent money; I'm making WAY less than they are working a couple federal clerkships, and I've already had to take on student loans and give up any shot at an income for three years. Sure, I'll jump ahead of them for the 2-3 years that I can last in biglaw, but after that, all bets are off. And I did the whole law route perfectly (T14 with a great scholly, killed law school, etc etc).

Do I wish I'd become a welder making bank in the Dakotas right now? Not really, because I still hope that my pitch perfect legal performance so far will pay off, but I'll tell you this, I sure as hell wasn't choosing between sticker at UCLA and Hastings. If I'd picked either of those options, I guarantee you I'd be dreaming about Williston Basin oil fields right now.

I never said law was at all a better choice. Merely stating that TLS is wrong on "hurr durr get another job. SO EASYIEZ!!!!!!". Still better to be unemployed after undergrad than unemployed after law school. Both have relatively high chances of happening

bruinfan10 wrote:The mantra is annoying because life is annoying. People who've been through this are telling you about their firsthand experiences; I'm sorry that reality doesn't jive with your view of how the world should work. My friends who started doing data-entry out of college are now moving up to mid-level management positions and making decent money; I'm making WAY less than they are working a couple federal clerkships, and I've already had to take on student loans and give up any shot at an income for three years. Sure, I'll jump ahead of them for the 2-3 years that I can last in biglaw, but after that, all bets are off. And I did the whole law route perfectly (T14 with a great scholly, killed law school, etc etc).

Do I wish I'd become a welder making bank in the Dakotas right now? Not really, because I still hope that my pitch perfect legal performance so far will pay off, but I'll tell you this, I sure as hell wasn't choosing between sticker at UCLA and Hastings. If I'd picked either of those options, I guarantee you I'd be dreaming about Williston Basin oil fields right now.

To be fair, isn't your job (fed clerking) 100x cooler than your mid-level management IT homeboi? All he does is fix computers. Yeah, he has an easy life. But the shit you do and are a part of impact real lives in a significant way. I don't think fed clerking and biglaw are comparable outcomes (clerking being much better).

PeanutsNJam wrote:

bruinfan10 wrote:The mantra is annoying because life is annoying. People who've been through this are telling you about their firsthand experiences; I'm sorry that reality doesn't jive with your view of how the world should work. My friends who started doing data-entry out of college are now moving up to mid-level management positions and making decent money; I'm making WAY less than they are working a couple federal clerkships, and I've already had to take on student loans and give up any shot at an income for three years. Sure, I'll jump ahead of them for the 2-3 years that I can last in biglaw, but after that, all bets are off. And I did the whole law route perfectly (T14 with a great scholly, killed law school, etc etc).

Do I wish I'd become a welder making bank in the Dakotas right now? Not really, because I still hope that my pitch perfect legal performance so far will pay off, but I'll tell you this, I sure as hell wasn't choosing between sticker at UCLA and Hastings. If I'd picked either of those options, I guarantee you I'd be dreaming about Williston Basin oil fields right now.

To be fair, isn't your job (fed clerking) 100x cooler than your mid-level management IT homeboi? All he does is fix computers. Yeah, he has an easy life. But the shit you do and are a part of impact real lives in a significant way. I don't think fed clerking and biglaw are comparable outcomes (clerking being much better).

Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but unless I try for career clerk somewhere, it's over in a year. That's why I mentioned biglaw (or a lit boutique with similar hours/burnout potential) as the most likely exit op, followed by the big ??? that is the post biglaw lit job market.

bruinfan10 wrote:

PeanutsNJam wrote:

bruinfan10 wrote:The mantra is annoying because life is annoying. People who've been through this are telling you about their firsthand experiences; I'm sorry that reality doesn't jive with your view of how the world should work. My friends who started doing data-entry out of college are now moving up to mid-level management positions and making decent money; I'm making WAY less than they are working a couple federal clerkships, and I've already had to take on student loans and give up any shot at an income for three years. Sure, I'll jump ahead of them for the 2-3 years that I can last in biglaw, but after that, all bets are off. And I did the whole law route perfectly (T14 with a great scholly, killed law school, etc etc).

Do I wish I'd become a welder making bank in the Dakotas right now? Not really, because I still hope that my pitch perfect legal performance so far will pay off, but I'll tell you this, I sure as hell wasn't choosing between sticker at UCLA and Hastings. If I'd picked either of those options, I guarantee you I'd be dreaming about Williston Basin oil fields right now.

To be fair, isn't your job (fed clerking) 100x cooler than your mid-level management IT homeboi? All he does is fix computers. Yeah, he has an easy life. But the shit you do and are a part of impact real lives in a significant way. I don't think fed clerking and biglaw are comparable outcomes (clerking being much better).

Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but unless I try for career clerk somewhere, it's over in a year. That's why I mentioned biglaw (or a lit boutique with similar hours/burnout potential) as the most likely exit op, followed by the big ??? that is the post biglaw lit job market.

The big burnout? That's where a lot of litigators from my firm ended up.

But anyway, like someone said being unemployed after undergrad >>>> being unemployed after law school.

Also, to other posters, not my problem that you guys majored in poli sci or some other bullshit. Get a real major and it's pretty damn easy finding a job out of college. Isn't trade school really cheap? Being a plumber, you can open your own business too with little overhead.

bruinfan10 wrote:

The Dark Shepard wrote:I do have to agree that TLS's mantra of "get an entry level job to something awesome" is annoying as if it is the easiest thing in the world. I wouldn't consider it any easier than getting something out of a decent law school. Of course with those you don't have to go 6 figures more in debt and take 3 more years of schooling, so that part is correct. Just don't be like "yo dawg, just go the "easy" route or "find a decent job/WE for a year and then reapply", which might encourage those who can't find said job to go this year to a bad option

The mantra is annoying because life is annoying. People who've been through this are telling you about their firsthand experiences; I'm sorry that reality doesn't jive with your view of how the world should work. My friends who started doing data-entry out of college are now moving up to mid-level management positions and making decent money; I'm making WAY less than they are working a couple federal clerkships, and I've already had to take on student loans and give up any shot at an income for three years. Sure, I'll jump ahead of them for the 2-3 years that I can last in biglaw, but after that, all bets are off. And I did the whole law route perfectly (T14 with a great scholly, killed law school, etc etc).

Do I wish I'd become a welder making bank in the Dakotas right now? Not really, because I still hope that my pitch perfect legal performance so far will pay off, but I'll tell you this, I sure as hell wasn't choosing between sticker at UCLA and Hastings. If I'd picked either of those options, I guarantee you I'd be dreaming about Williston Basin oil fields right now.

The thing about law is that, unlike finance or whatever, there is no real upside. It's all the same shit, forever, unless you move to the business side of things.

For example, my college classmate went to Yale law, clerked for a federal judge, then clerked for a Supreme Court Justice, and now where is this person? At a biglaw firm. Sure they ended up with a huge bonus, but this person is still at the same place as everyone else. What the fuck is the point of gunning if you just end up like everyone else? Another Yale law grad I know who clerked for two federal judges, one COA, two biglaw firms, is now at some small litigation firm, where most people went to the local state schools. Law is limiting, especially for litigators.

Many partners still work a ton too, and are constantly on call. Not much better unless you're a rainmaker.

Retake > Hastings > bet life savings on black for one spin on the roulette table > UCLA