Top Law Schools

After doing a quick analysis of Duke and Georgetown's ABA Employment Outcomes, I came across some interesting numbers regarding law firm placement vs. PI/Gov. From lurking around TLS the past few months, I have seen many posters claim that Georgetown's BL+FC numbers have the potential to be higher, but are relatively low because of many GULCers self selecting in to PI or Gov work. The numbers seem to back that up in the cases of two of the schools I am considering.

For 2013:
Duke: BL (101+) + FC = 62.5%
Georgetown: BL + FC = 47.5%

Duke: PI + Gov = 10%
Georgetown: PI + Gov = 26%

In fact, if you add the difference between Georgetown and Duke PI+Gov scores (16%) to the original BL+FC scores, you get roughly the same number.

As a 0L, I'm not posting this as some huge revelation to the TLS world. Rather, I'm posting it to ask for any insight you may have regarding this situation as I am being forced to make a decision while staring down the barrel of 6-figure non dischargeable student loan debt.

Also, sorry if this is beating a dead horse.

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GULC employs a huge portion of its own graduates and puts most of them into the PI/Gov bucket. 73 students from the class of 2013 are classified as long term, full time, bar passage required, but they're being paid by the school.

PI/Gov stuff is hard to figure, but take a look at the chart below showing placement for the class of 2005. Back in those days it was easier to get PI/Gov and yet GULC was placing fewer students in those areas.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

When it comes to long-term outcomes, Duke is ranked 11th and G/G are ranked 13th and 14th, respectively. While it is true that Duke is a T8, the US News rankings look at things like library size which are irrelevant to your decision. TLS is obsessed with rankings and short-term job reports, that's the reason they view Duke as so much better than G/G, but they're all in the same neighborhood once you look at the facts.

brianiac wrote:Duke is a T8

t8 - love it

brianiac wrote:that's the reason they view Duke as so much better than G/G

what's the other G?


p.s. i think i love you

brianiac wrote:When it comes to long-term outcomes, Duke is ranked 11th and G/G are ranked 13th and 14th, respectively. While it is true that Duke is a T8, the US News rankings look at things like library size which are irrelevant to your decision. TLS is obsessed with rankings and short-term job reports, that's the reason they view Duke as so much better than G/G, but they're all in the same neighborhood once you look at the facts.

I know the US News Rankings are bad but don't conflate them with the Cooley rankings.

brianiac wrote:the US News rankings look at things like library size which are irrelevant to your decision.

Whoa, bro. Totally not irrelevant to my decision. I just love books so much. Also, not sure if idiot or excellent troll. Well done.

brianiac wrote:G/G

I need an email alert for all brainiac posts.

brianiac wrote:When it comes to long-term outcomes, Duke is ranked 11th and G/G are ranked 13th and 14th, respectively. While it is true that Duke is a T8, the US News rankings look at things like library size which are irrelevant to your decision. TLS is obsessed with rankings and short-term job reports, that's the reason they view Duke as so much better than G/G, but they're all in the same neighborhood once you look at the facts.

What facts are TLS missing/misinterpreting?

ballcaps wrote:

brianiac wrote:Duke is a T8

t8 - love it

LOL

YES

ballcaps wrote:

brianiac wrote:that's the reason they view Duke as so much better than G/G

what's the other G?

Didn't you hear? GULC got so large that the ABA ordered Georgetown to split the law school into two different law centers. GULC I and GULC II are currently tied for 14th.

Btw, I heard that GULC II is better for elite PI placement.

rpupkin wrote:

ballcaps wrote:

brianiac wrote:that's the reason they view Duke as so much better than G/G

what's the other G?

Didn't you hear? GULC got so large that the ABA ordered Georgetown to split the law school into two different law centers. GULC I and GULC II are currently tied for 14th.

Btw, I heard that GULC II is better for elite PI placement.

FACT 1 in 4 Americans are either GULC or Harvard law students.

In addition to what everyone else has said, just because Georgetown has x amount more people in PI/gov doesn't mean that those people had they not taken that path, would have chosen either BL or FC, or even have been able to get that outcome. It's very possible that the preferences aren't actually all that different, and that many of the PI/gov people at Georgetown are in that as a second resort.

I agree that Georgetown students probably self-select toward PI and gov more than Duke students do, but these numbers don't necessarily support that claim, nor do they support the claim that Georgetown's BL/FC numbers have the potential to be higher.

brianiac wrote:[G'Town]/[GW]

Don't know why GW is pertinent to this thread. Regardless, ~63% of GW's 2012 class failed to land BL or clerkship...which is abysmal.

Let me preface this with: GULC < Duke. Doy.

Gulc's numbers are what they are. But schools don't just take people and shuttle them into jobs, the students have to be quality. So does GULC take more lower quality people given its lower ranking and class size? Or is there something inherent about the school that makes hiring harder? The latter is more relevant - if the same person went to different schools, how would their outcome be affected?

zacharus85 wrote:Let me preface this with: GULC < Duke. Doy.

Gulc's numbers are what they are. But schools don't just take people and shuttle them into jobs, the students have to be quality. So does GULC take more lower quality people given its lower ranking and class size? Or is there something inherent about the school that makes hiring harder? The latter is more relevant - if the same person went to different schools, how would their outcome be affected?

What is a "lower quality person"?

Poorer social skills, less professional, less whatever-it-is hiring attorneys are looking for. If degree was all that mattered, you'd never see an unemployed HLS grad. But you do see them, albeit rarely.

would shock me if there was an appreciable difference
i can't imagine there would be any connection between what schools based decisions on (gpa/lsat) and social skills
but if there was, my guess is it would be inversely proportional

LOLOL at G/G.

Why does this dude insist on GW being a thing? When did a 27% large firm score become elite?

Question related to OP's: For someone who wants to do PI, is Duke definitely a better choice than Georgetown given equal COA? Even considering Tiago's post above, about GTown employing its own graduates and giving them the LT FT PI/Gov employment label.

eggyolk wrote:Question related to OP's: For someone who wants to do PI, is Duke definitely a better choice than Georgetown given equal COA? Even considering Tiago's post above, about GTown employing its own graduates and giving them the LT FT PI/Gov employment label.

Probably depends on what kind of PI you want and where you want to do it

"PI" is just so broad and vague

Can't speak for Duke, but I know GULC invests really hard in clinics, pro bono connections, and faculty that have these PI connections. Does this stuff actually matter for getting hired as compared to the more prestigious Duke brand? No idea. But IF clinics and hands-on opportunities for experience and networking actually count for anything, then GULC might have an advantage.

How is brianiac not banned yet