Top Law Schools

There's a lot of topics about HYS at sticker vs. other schools full ride, but only HYS offer financial aid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the tuition w/ max financial aid is about $10k for the first 2 years and $15k for the 3rd year assuming the student lands BigLaw internship their 2L summer. Is paying the extra $35k for HYS over CCN worth it? What if the full ride also has a living stipend?

Depends on your goals, willingness to avoid debt (or how much money you can pay), where you are going to work, how much prestige means to you...
Unless we're comparing HYS sticker with CC full ride, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer here.

I'm not sure where you heard those max numbers for HYS financial aid (and why a 3L who received income for a SA would receive more money), but I thought that I've heard others say the max is around $30,000 per year with a lesser amount your 3L if you receive income for a SA. Others who have the exact figures can correct me if I'm wrong.

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unoplayer wrote:There's a lot of topics about HYS at sticker vs. other schools full ride, but only HYS offer financial aid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the tuition w/ max financial aid is about $10k for the first 2 years and $15k for the 3rd year assuming the student lands BigLaw internship their 2L summer. Is paying the extra $35k for HYS over CCN worth it? What if the full ride also has a living stipend?

Do you have kids? If you are married (with kids) does your spouse have zero income? Otherwise you aren't getting anywhere near that level of aid, even if your entire familial worth is 1 penny. (I say this because that is about the equivalent of mine, and I'm not where near that level of aid, though I do receive a little bit more than what most individuals do since I did a bit of jockeying between SLS and HLS).

With YHS, you should pay attention to the base loan amounts, which is the amount you MUST borrow regardless of your level of aid. For Harvard the base loan this year was somewhere around $43k. I think Yale is in that ballpark, Stanford may be a little lower.

So back of the envelope, the least debt you'd be leaving those schools with is ~$130k and will likely be more as you have to reduce your 3rd year grant aid by an assumed 3L SA.

If you get a Ruby at Chicago, you're left to borrow for living expenses, health insurance, and student fees. My guess is that leaves you about $80k in debt upon graduation.

unoplayer wrote:There's a lot of topics about HYS at sticker vs. other schools full ride, but only HYS offer financial aid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the tuition w/ max financial aid is about $10k for the first 2 years and $15k for the 3rd year assuming the student lands BigLaw internship their 2L summer. Is paying the extra $35k for HYS over CCN worth it? What if the full ride also has a living stipend?

this is not an accurate hypo. the bolded is false, and as others pointed out, omits living expenses.

suffice to say, if you get a rubenstein or hamilton, that will be the right call unless you have many dependents or extremely low personal & family income and you qualify for a very large grant. this also depends in part on whether you want to work in the private sector or for the government.

It's not false, except for year three, but it does omit living expenses.

jbagelboy wrote:

unoplayer wrote:There's a lot of topics about HYS at sticker vs. other schools full ride, but only HYS offer financial aid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the tuition w/ max financial aid is about $10k for the first 2 years and $15k for the 3rd year assuming the student lands BigLaw internship their 2L summer. Is paying the extra $35k for HYS over CCN worth it? What if the full ride also has a living stipend?

this is not an accurate hypo. the bolded is false, and as others pointed out, omits living expenses.

suffice to say, if you get a rubenstein or hamilton, that will be the right call unless you have many dependents or extremely low personal & family income and you qualify for a very large grant. this also depends in part on whether you want to work in the private sector or for the government.

Why? Difference between a Hamilton and HYS full aid is, what, like $50k? Yale or Stanford as easily worth $50k more than Columbia unless you're 100% set on NYC Biglaw.

OP, you should take this with a grain of salt, since I made the objectively stupid decision to take Yale at basically sticker over the Ruby (and can't get myself to regret it yet even if it was dumb), but I'd easily pay $50-70k more for Stanford or Yale (Hamilton), and probably would pay the $100k more too (Ruby). Of course this might change depending on your goals.

Harvard, otoh, I don't think is materially all that much different from Chi or Columbia if you have normal goals, unless you really want to be in DC.

Elston Gunn wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

unoplayer wrote:There's a lot of topics about HYS at sticker vs. other schools full ride, but only HYS offer financial aid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the tuition w/ max financial aid is about $10k for the first 2 years and $15k for the 3rd year assuming the student lands BigLaw internship their 2L summer. Is paying the extra $35k for HYS over CCN worth it? What if the full ride also has a living stipend?

this is not an accurate hypo. the bolded is false, and as others pointed out, omits living expenses.

suffice to say, if you get a rubenstein or hamilton, that will be the right call unless you have many dependents or extremely low personal & family income and you qualify for a very large grant. this also depends in part on whether you want to work in the private sector or for the government.

Why? Difference between a Hamilton and HYS full aid is, what, like $50k? Yale or Stanford as easily worth $50k more than Columbia unless you're 100% set on NYC Biglaw.

As a side note, I think it's substantially more than $50k; if you have $43K minimum loan w/ max aid versus ~20-25K in CoL with the named scholarship, that's roughly a $20,000 delta each year, which, with interest, will be more like $70K+ as a conservative estimate upon graduation.

I'll try not to engage in a debate between the merits of those programs (given your personal choices and mine we probably wouldn't agree on a single figure) but I must not have articulated myself very clearly because I think your statements vibe just fine with mine. If you do qualify for max aid -- which happens in particular circumstances like the ones I mentioned above -- it will be worth it to pass on the named scholarships. Similarly, if you want to work in the federal government or you know you'll enter an LRAP-eligible capacity after graduation, the calculus changes again and yale/stanford are more attractive again even at higher cost.

jbagelboy wrote:

Elston Gunn wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

unoplayer wrote:There's a lot of topics about HYS at sticker vs. other schools full ride, but only HYS offer financial aid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the tuition w/ max financial aid is about $10k for the first 2 years and $15k for the 3rd year assuming the student lands BigLaw internship their 2L summer. Is paying the extra $35k for HYS over CCN worth it? What if the full ride also has a living stipend?

this is not an accurate hypo. the bolded is false, and as others pointed out, omits living expenses.

suffice to say, if you get a rubenstein or hamilton, that will be the right call unless you have many dependents or extremely low personal & family income and you qualify for a very large grant. this also depends in part on whether you want to work in the private sector or for the government.

Why? Difference between a Hamilton and HYS full aid is, what, like $50k? Yale or Stanford as easily worth $50k more than Columbia unless you're 100% set on NYC Biglaw.

I'll try not to engage in a debate between the merits of those programs (given your personal choices and mine we probably wouldn't agree on a single figure) but I must not have articulated myself very clearly because I think your statements vibe just fine with mine. If you do qualify for max aid -- which happens in particular circumstances like the ones I mentioned above -- it will be worth it to pass on the named scholarships. Similarly, if you want to work in the federal government or you know you'll enter an LRAP-eligible capacity after graduation, the calculus changes again and yale/stanford are more attractive again even at higher cost.

Ah, RC fail.

Elston Gunn wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

unoplayer wrote:There's a lot of topics about HYS at sticker vs. other schools full ride, but only HYS offer financial aid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the tuition w/ max financial aid is about $10k for the first 2 years and $15k for the 3rd year assuming the student lands BigLaw internship their 2L summer. Is paying the extra $35k for HYS over CCN worth it? What if the full ride also has a living stipend?

this is not an accurate hypo. the bolded is false, and as others pointed out, omits living expenses.

suffice to say, if you get a rubenstein or hamilton, that will be the right call unless you have many dependents or extremely low personal & family income and you qualify for a very large grant. this also depends in part on whether you want to work in the private sector or for the government.

Why? Difference between a Hamilton and HYS full aid is, what, like $50k? Yale or Stanford as easily worth $50k more than Columbia unless you're 100% set on NYC Biglaw.

+1

Elston Gunn wrote:OP, you should take this with a grain of salt, since I made the objectively stupid decision to take Yale at basically sticker over the Ruby (and can't get myself to regret it yet even if it was dumb), but I'd easily pay $50-70k more for Stanford or Yale (Hamilton), and probably would pay the $100k more too (Ruby). Of course this might change depending on your goals.

Harvard, otoh, I don't think is materially all that much different from Chi or Columbia if you have normal goals, unless you really want to be in DC.

I agree with this. I think that part of it is that you actually have a shot at different outcomes from Yale (and I guess Stanford, I don't really know). There isn't enough difference in the number of superlative outcomes at HLS to make it worth the cost increase over Chicago or Columbia, imho.

I'd also say that I've heard kids aren't required to max aid, though they surely help.

Turning down the Ruby seems nuts unless you're gunning for truly rare stuff and willing to gamble a ton on Yale. Hamilton seems easier. I never had either choice so that made the decision very easy.

hdunlop wrote:I'd also say that I've heard kids aren't required to max aid, though they surely help.

Turning down the Ruby seems nuts unless you're gunning for truly rare stuff and willing to gamble a ton on Yale. Hamilton seems easier. I never had either choice so that made the decision very easy.

I have "max" aid without kids, at least based on all the calculations I've ever seen here on TLS and I still have more than 10k in tuition. While I haven't spoke to many people about it, no one else without kids that I have spoken to has received aid anywhere near my level (again, fully acknowledging the sample issue), and the only people who got more have had children and they still owed more than 10k in tuition. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just wouldn't ever recommend anyone bet on it for these kinds of decisions.

I would have jumped on a full ride, but didn't have anything even close. In fact SLS and HLS (assuming my finances stay roughly the same) offered me more than any other school in the T14.

Nonconsecutive wrote:

hdunlop wrote:I'd also say that I've heard kids aren't required to max aid, though they surely help.

Turning down the Ruby seems nuts unless you're gunning for truly rare stuff and willing to gamble a ton on Yale. Hamilton seems easier. I never had either choice so that made the decision very easy.

I have "max" aid without kids, at least based on all the calculations I've ever seen here on TLS and I still have more than 10k in tuition. While I haven't spoke to many people about it, no one else without kids that I have spoken to has received aid anywhere near my level (again, fully acknowledging the sample issue), and the only people who got more have had children and they still owed more than 10k in tuition. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just wouldn't ever recommend anyone bet on it for these kinds of decisions.

I would have jumped on a full ride, but didn't have anything even close. In fact SLS and HLS (assuming my finances stay roughly the same) offered me more than any other school in the T14.

I have no kids, but have low family income. What is the tuition under max aid without kids? I'm not including living expenses because besides the Ruby, the other scholarships do not give a living stipend and you always have to pay living expenses regardless of whether you go to law school.

I doubt there are more than a handful of people with these options. Probably doesn't matter too much either way, unless maxed out aid isn't as much as I'm thinking it is.

utahraptor wrote:

Elston Gunn wrote:OP, you should take this with a grain of salt, since I made the objectively stupid decision to take Yale at basically sticker over the Ruby (and can't get myself to regret it yet even if it was dumb), but I'd easily pay $50-70k more for Stanford or Yale (Hamilton), and probably would pay the $100k more too (Ruby). Of course this might change depending on your goals.

Harvard, otoh, I don't think is materially all that much different from Chi or Columbia if you have normal goals, unless you really want to be in DC.

I agree with this. I think that part of it is that you actually have a shot at different outcomes from Yale (and I guess Stanford, I don't really know). There isn't enough difference in the number of superlative outcomes at HLS to make it worth the cost increase over Chicago or Columbia, imho.

Right after graduation, YLS and maybe SLS have better outcomes than HLS, but would the HLS name carry you further in the long run? HLS is more recognizable internationally and among non-lawyers (people not at a law firm who make hiring decisions).

Long run I'd wager it matters less. Partners at top firms come from all sorts of schools. I don't think the H bomb matters nearly as much as, you know, being good at your job.