The Extent of Geographical Ties Forum

[starry eyed]

Hi everyone, I use to lurk on this site a couple years ago. Well, until i took the LSAT and underperformed, and then pursued the medical school route and now I'm back lol.
Stats: 163, 3.81 --- retaking in december

My question is concerning geographical ties. I have my heart set on SMU, however I am concerned as to how insular that market is.
I love Dallas. I could really see myself living their the rest of my life. My goals are biglaw/midlaw/fed clerk.

[WhiskeyAndCupcakes]

.

[Rigo]

Houston is less tie-centric than Dallas. Someone else will be better at speaking about what constitutes sufficient Dallas ties.
Be sure to apply to UT also, especially once you get that higher LSAT. It'd probably be your best option for the right price.

[starry eyed]

Thank y'all for the replies. Part of the reason I'm attracted to dallas is because of the economic growth and the lower cost of living compared to up north. I despise the "real south"- only place I have ties to. I have been practicing in the 168 range. It just tears me up to sit out a cycle because I think, and this is speculation, that the trend of lower law school (t15-t50 at least) apps is going to reverse. I'm definitely going to apply to UT Law. What bothers me the most is that I can't find concrete information on ties

[Rigo]

It just tears me up to sit out a cycle because I think, and this is speculation, that the trend of lower law school apps is going to reverse.

People thought this year would be the rebound, yet LSAT administrations have continued to go down 8-10% so far this year.
Maybe they'll finally bottom of this year, but I wouldn't worry. There is unlikely to be a big increase next year. Administrations may fall again next year for all we know, and next cycle may be better than this current one.

[03152016]

i know this isn't responsive to your question, but SMU is not a good option if you're interested in biglaw/fedclerk
less than a quarter of 2013 SMU grads had one of those outcomes
and midlaw is a far less common outcome than you're likely anticipating

look at this salary distribution:



and remember, that's just reported incomes

[starry eyed]

You make a good point. I can it take another 3 times since it's been over 2 years, and I can only benefit from it. I know I'm on the verge of getting in at UT even at my current lsat. If I got accepted at sticker at Ut and then do better on my next score, is there negotiating a scholarship? Ik I could probably look this up an I apologize lol.

[starry eyed]

I was basing my thoughts on SMU based on the 2013 Nalp report which reported median salary of 115,000 in private practice. I also read dallas has a higher than avg mid law presence.

[starry eyed]

Yet another reason I'm attracted to SMU is because, and I know I'm gonna get flamed, is the high business industry stats. I'm very interested in that as just as a "possibility" if I just hated law. But then again this could be due to rich kids from Dallas whose parents are grooming them to take over. I've heard rumors that SMU cater to those folks

[Rigo]

The better the school, the better the opportunities. (Meant as a warning against SMU)

And yes you can retake for more money after acceptance. It's definitely preferable to initially apply with your highest possible LSAT though, especially since you're out of state and UT's admissions practices favor Texas residents.

[03152016]

that's a subset of a subset of a subset

the $115k number represents a mere 144 out of 247 graduates
that's graduates of smu, who are employed, in a legal capacity, working in the private-sector, and choosing to disclose their salary
on what side do you think the remaining 103 graduates fall?

there were 247 graduates in SMU's 2013 class
224 reported being employed
171 reported a salary with a median of $85,000
even this number is too high, as it excludes 76 graduates almost certainly earning less than the median salary

[starry eyed]

Ok y'all convinced me against smu. I think I'm just gonna apply to vandy , ut, and a few other reaches right now, and upon finding out the results, re apply if necessary.

[Rigo]

Good luck on your retake in a few weeks.
You'll have much better options, given your gpa, if you bump that lsat up several points.

[starry eyed]

Also, is the ABA employment stat website reliable. I usually add up the people who got hired at firms between 50-500+ and fed clerks and divide by the total grads.I got like 27% for smu. But the business industry was around 20%. I guess I'm putting too much optimism in that business/industry stat, because Dallas is such a stron economy

[Rigo]

Also, is the ABA employment stat website reliable. I usually add up the people who got hired at firms between 50-500+ and fed clerks and add them up. I got like 27% for smu. But the business industry was around 20%. I guess I'm too much optimism in that business/industry stat, because Dallas is such a stron economy

That 20% isn't good. I don't know why you're reading it as a positive thing. Those people could not find jobs as lawyers.

[sparty99]

SMU is way too overrpiced to attend. Don't go.

[03152016]

remember that business is a catch-all term for employment that requires skills/training
temping in an office job falls in that category
working as a short-order cook falls in that category
becoming a snowboarding instructor falls in that category

only 65% of smu grads in the business category reported a salary; these are almost certainly the ones with actual professional positions, as we would understand the term "professional" (the median in that subset is $75k)

[starry eyed]

I read it as somewhat as a positive due to the large Fortune 500 presence there. I probably just got brainwashed by smu website though lol

[starry eyed]

I know what I need to do ultimately . I guess I was just trying to reassure myself that if I do worse on the lsat, then no big deal. Thank y'all for the hinesty

[Tiago Splitter]

It's worth repeating that the best leading indicator we have for the number of people heading to law school is the number of people taking the LSAT. The number of people taking the LSAT continues to drop rapidly, so there's no hurry. SMU's class size has also been dropping, and for all we know it could be right-sized 2-3 years from now.

[BigZuck]

I'm a 2L at UT. Given your ties as is, if you attend UT and apply for jobs in Dallas you're likely dead on arrival IMO unless you have really good grades (and you should probably spend your 1L summer there too).

I had a hard time convincing Houston firms of my interest in that city, not a Texan but my ties were pretty strong. From what I have heard Dallas is even tougher. There probably were some other factors working against me (feel free to PM me if you care) but I'm just trying to warn you that going to UT and being from "the South" isn't a golden ticket. You're going to need good grades (and that is a feat in and of itself) and then you're going to have to convince them that you live and breath and bleed Dallas. Not impossible, but it will be tough, especially considering you have never lived there.

[AreJay711]

i know this isn't responsive to your question, but SMU is not a good option if you're interested in biglaw/fedclerk
less than a quarter of 2013 SMU grads had one of those outcomes
and midlaw is a far less common outcome than you're likely anticipating

look at this salary distribution:



and remember, that's just reported incomes

Although this graph demonstrates your point, it's not as bad as a lot of people think. Even though no single salary in the "midlaw" range dominates, you need to look at the integral over the entire range. Also, even some of the $65k salaries aren't so bad since a lot of those firms give pretty aggressive raises as you gain experience (they just aren't going to subsidize you learning the basics).

Re: Ties -- I grew up on the east coast, attended a t14, and was able to sell a Houston firm on taking me 2L summer. I did 1L in Houston too. I'm doing a fed clerkship in Austin next year. It's really more about selling your interest than anything.

[starry eyed]

So I guess there's some truth to dc/NYC being the markets where ties don't matter. I'll just apply to Fordham and George Washington pending lsat results. Location matters but not to the point where I would sacrifice much

[starry eyed]

Also I have a trust fundand I would receive 15k per year from gi bill as well as monthly stipend for living expenses. Given the ridiculous price, Would that change y'all's minds about gw an Fordham?

[Tiago Splitter]

Also I have a trust fundand I would receive 15k per year from gi bill as well as monthly stipend for living expenses. Given the ridiculous price, Would that change y'all's minds about gw an Fordham?

Only if those funds could only be used for GW or Fordham.