DoD Acquisition and Policy Law Forum

[Elston Gunn]

It seems like you haven't done a lot of research about the D.C. market. It is absolutely brutal--probably by far the most difficult market to get a firm job in, at least in terms of the basic credentials required. Top 10% people at T14s have been known to strike out. Your work experience will certainly help, to the point where I'd still expect you get *something* in D.C. from, e.g., median at Columbia, but you might very well end up at a D.C. satellite that doesn't even do government k's.

[timbs4339]

I second the folks who say that you need to look at exit options from your current job. Look, even if you get a firm job, when you factor in loans you're not going to be making a "shit ton" of money unless you make partner, and that's very very unlikely. In the area you are in, you'll probably be moving back and forth between government and private practice work during your career.

Whereas if you have decent (100K) exit options from your current job, and no debt, you're in a much more stable position than most law students graduating from GW with 250K or 300K of debt.

However, if you're even considering Barry and FAMU, I'm concerned that you don't have the scores to get into a school that gives you a decent shot at biglaw.

[twenty]

First off, EDing to GWU's Part Time program gives you a full scholarship if you're accepted: http://www.law.gwu.edu/Admissions/apply ... early.aspx

Secondly, I'm currently a contracting officer. I scaled back my hours to be able to attend law school (currently a law student now) and believe me when I tell you that the exit opportunities from being a contracting officer, especially a DoD contracting officer, are exponentially better than the exit opportunities even from an elite law school. There are NO entry level jobs for attorneys right now; the DA's offices hire less than 1% of applicants, the feds hire even fewer, and biglaw is far from a guarantee even at a T14 law school.

You mentioned that the max a federal employee makes is about 170k. That's true, especially if you want to slog your way up the GS scale, but you're making 170k/year in exchange for 40 hours a week of work.

I would say about as possible to be an extraordinarily successful attorney....

It's actually pretty feasible to be making 170k a year in your first year of biglaw practice if you go to a T14. And the lockstep system goes up pretty fast, so you could probably hit 225k/year without doing too much additional hustling. But...

excluding student loan debt

Excluding student debt is like saying "I'm trying to decide whether or not to kill this guy; excluding the possibility of life in prison when I get caught, is this a good idea?" Sticker price at most (decent) law schools is 300k at 8%+ interest. You'll have to do biglaw for 6-8 years before you break even. For a full ride at a T14, you'll need a 3.8+ GPA and a 172+ LSAT score. If you can pull that off, good for you. If you can't, abandon all dreams of biglaw -> riches.

As a personal note, I love law school, I really want to be an attorney, and I have an awesome "backup" job with the feds. I still would not have gone to law school if I wasn't getting a full ride scholarship.

[captderrick]

I must say that everyone has a valid point in their opinion... And that I find most of them very interesting.... One trend I am noticing though (across TLS) is that unless you go t-14 and make it to biglaw, law school isn't worth the trouble... kinda strange... given the fact there are many lawyers who don't go to the biggest school, don't go to big law, have student loan debt, and still aren't regretful. I wonder where this animosity towards law school stems from?

---And to everyone who keeps preaching how GW is $300K, I hear ya! lol... I may be naive and have hopeless dreams of going to law school, but I'm certainly not stupid enough to accumulate that kind of debt....

[patogordo]

what animosity?

[timbs4339]

I must say that everyone has a valid point in their opinion... And that I find most of them very interesting.... One trend I am noticing though (across TLS) is that unless you go t-14 and make it to biglaw, law school isn't worth the trouble... kinda strange... given the fact there are many lawyers who don't go to the biggest school, don't go to big law, have student loan debt, and still aren't regretful. I wonder where this animosity towards law school stems from?

---And to everyone who keeps preaching how GW is $300K, I hear ya! lol... I may be naive and have hopeless dreams of going to law school, but I'm certainly not stupid enough to accumulate that kind of debt....

This is a gross micharacterization of the TLS position.

The TLS hivemind is that if you're just an aimless liberal arts grad or someone in a white collar job a couple years out, you probably just have amorphous goals of making a "shit ton" of money, wearing a suit to work, having everyone fawn over you at family reunions, and doing interesting work. If you're that person, then you shouldn't go to law school unless you have a pretty good shot at getting into a T-14 with money, so you can get biglaw or one of the few non-biglaw jobs that is similarly prestigious and well-paying. That's because the reality of life for most law grads for the first 5-10 years of their career is not like TV or what people have built it up into their heads.

Now there is a minority of people who don't fit this definition. The really want to be DAs or Public Defenders and don't care they'll only make 45K. They've worked at some state agency or small firm and have a job lined up there after conditioned on getting a JD. They are born hustlers who want to work at a small firm serving middle class clients that will pay 35K no benefits so they can get experience. But most people who go to law school haven't researched the career path that well. They just assume that even if they don't go to Harvard there's some 50 hour a week "midlaw" job waiting that pays 95K with room for advancement. Those people are not mentally prepared to take on six-figures of debt. If I was King of Law School I would simply not allow lenders to lend that much money to them, period.

And even for those people, the TLS hivemind basically says this (1) understand what career path you want, preferably by working there a few years, (2) go to a school in the area you have ties or want to work, (3) get a full scholarship. Again, a lot of people don't want to do this, because it's easier to get an acceptance now then to study for the LSAT or defer your dreams for another year while you retake.

You're somewhere between the first and second group of people. You do have a defined career path and some work experience. But you also have much better alternative options. You've got to line up the right school in order to maximize your chances at improving your situation. Ultimately, you should come back here when you've got an LSAT score and a list of schools and schollys.

[captderrick]

I must say that everyone has a valid point in their opinion... And that I find most of them very interesting.... One trend I am noticing though (across TLS) is that unless you go t-14 and make it to biglaw, law school isn't worth the trouble... kinda strange... given the fact there are many lawyers who don't go to the biggest school, don't go to big law, have student loan debt, and still aren't regretful. I wonder where this animosity towards law school stems from?

---And to everyone who keeps preaching how GW is $300K, I hear ya! lol... I may be naive and have hopeless dreams of going to law school, but I'm certainly not stupid enough to accumulate that kind of debt....

This is a gross micharacterization of the TLS position.

The TLS hivemind is that if you're just an aimless liberal arts grad or someone in a white collar job a couple years out, you probably just have amorphous goals of making a "shit ton" of money, wearing a suit to work, having everyone fawn over you at family reunions, and doing interesting work. If you're that person, then you shouldn't go to law school unless you have a pretty good shot at getting into a T-14 with money, so you can get biglaw or one of the few non-biglaw jobs that is similarly prestigious and well-paying. That's because the reality of life for most law grads for the first 5-10 years of their career is not like TV or what people have built it up into their heads.

Now there is a minority of people who don't fit this definition. The really want to be DAs or Public Defenders and don't care they'll only make 45K. They've worked at some state agency or small firm and have a job lined up there after conditioned on getting a JD. They are born hustlers who want to work at a small firm serving middle class clients that will pay 35K no benefits so they can get experience. But most people who go to law school haven't researched the career path that well. They just assume that even if they don't go to Harvard there's some 50 hour a week "midlaw" job waiting that pays 95K with room for advancement. Those people are not mentally prepared to take on six-figures of debt. If I was King of Law School I would simply not allow lenders to lend that much money to them, period.

And even for those people, the TLS hivemind basically says this (1) understand what career path you want, preferably by working there a few years, (2) go to a school in the area you have ties or want to work, (3) get a full scholarship. Again, a lot of people don't want to do this, because it's easier to get an acceptance now then to study for the LSAT or defer your dreams for another year while you retake.

You're somewhere between the first and second group of people. You do have a defined career path and some work experience. But you also have much better alternative options. You've got to line up the right school in order to maximize your chances at improving your situation. Ultimately, you should come back here when you've got an LSAT score and a list of schools and schollys.

Roger that! Very good explanation. I must say I was getting a little offended when I began to read it. Good thing I read the entire post lol