Law School Discussion Forums
https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/
https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=236547
Because it is employment, and it's very easy to see what the % is and take it into account. It doesn't seem disingenuous or anything.TheodoreKGB wrote:It's a useful statistic, but it would be much nicer not figured into the overall %.
No its not employment it is an internship.B.B. Homemaker wrote:Because it is employment, and it's very easy to see what the % is and take it into account. It doesn't seem disingenuous or anything.TheodoreKGB wrote:It's a useful statistic, but it would be much nicer not figured into the overall %.
You mean I was lying to guys this summer when I told them I had a job?Desert Fox wrote:No its not employment it is an internship.B.B. Homemaker wrote:Because it is employment, and it's very easy to see what the % is and take it into account. It doesn't seem disingenuous or anything.TheodoreKGB wrote:It's a useful statistic, but it would be much nicer not figured into the overall %.
It depends. ABA releases data on this, but most school funded positions at top schools are long term (but this only means that it is expected to last more than one year), and Full Time, Bar Passage Required. Even UVA, with its infamous 16% school funded rate, places almost all of that 16% into full time, long term, Bar Passage req'd, jobs.TheodoreKGB wrote:It's my understanding that you're cut loose after the employment reporting period. Is that correct?
Robb wrote:It depends. ABA releases data on this, but most school funded positions at top schools are long term (but this only means that it is expected to last more than one year), and Full Time, Bar Passage Required. Even UVA, with its infamous 16% school funded rate, places almost all of that 16% into full time, long term, Bar Passage req'd, jobs.TheodoreKGB wrote:It's my understanding that you're cut loose after the employment reporting period. Is that correct?
Here is a list of schools by school funded jobs that are either non-FT or non-LT or non-Bar req'd for the c/o 2013, with T14 bolded & large [source]:
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 15%
FORDHAM UNIVERSITY 12%
NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY 12%
CALIFORNIA-HASTINGS, UNIVERSITY OF 12%
WASHINGTON AND LEE UNIVERSITY 11%
CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK 11%
LOYOLA MARYMOUNT UNIVERSITY-LOS ANGELES 11%
GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY 11%
CHARLOTTE SCHOOL OF LAW 11%
CALIFORNIA-DAVIS, UNIVERSITY OF 10%
DENVER, UNIVERSITY OF 9%
ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY 9%
BOSTON UNIVERSITY 9%
CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY 8%
FLORIDA COASTAL SCHOOL OF LAW 8%
ARIZONA SUMMIT LAW SCHOOL 8%
TEMPLE UNIVERSITY 8%
STETSON UNIVERSITY 8%
GOLDEN GATE UNIVERSITY 7%
COLORADO, UNIVERSITY OF 7%
MINNESOTA, UNIVERSITY OF 7%
WAKE FOREST UNIVERSITY 7%
BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL 7%
OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY 7%
WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY 7%
OREGON, UNIVERSITY OF 6%
BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY 5%
PEPPERDINE UNIVERSITY 5%
DREXEL UNIVERSITY 5%
SAN DIEGO, UNIVERSITY OF 5%
WILLAMETTE UNIVERSITY 5%
BOSTON COLLEGE 5%
AMERICAN UNIVERSITY 5%
ST. JOHN'S UNIVERSITY 5%
HOFSTRA UNIVERSITY 4%
SANTA CLARA UNIVERSITY 4%
SOUTH DAKOTA, UNIVERSITY OF 4%
CALIFORNIA-LOS ANGELES, UNIVERSITY OF 4%
CINCINNATI, UNIVERSITY OF 4%
INDIANA UNIVERSITY - BLOOMINGTON 4%
MIAMI, UNIVERSITY OF 4%
CARDOZO SCHOOL OF LAW 4%
PACE UNIVERSITY 4%
DUKE UNIVERSITY 4%
ATLANTA'S JOHN MARSHALL LAW SHOOL 3%
YALE UNIVERSITY 3%
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, UNIVERSITY OF 3%
MICHIGAN, UNIVERSITY OF 3%
NORTH DAKOTA, UNIVERSITY OF 3%
FLORIDA, UNIVERSITY OF 3%
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 3%
PENNSYLVANIA STATE UNIVERSITY 3%
NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY 2%
ELON UNIVERSITY 2%
LOYOLA UNIVERSITY-CHICAGO 2%
MARYLAND, UNIVERSITY OF 2%
WILLIAM AND MARY LAW SCHOOL 2%
WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY 2%
MISSOURI, UNIVERSITY OF 2%
LIBERTY UNIVERSITY 2%
HAWAII, UNIVERSITY OF 2%
MERCER UNIVERSITY 2%
HARVARD UNIVERSITY 2%
ILLINOIS, UNIVERSITY OF 2%
NORTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY 2%
BAYLOR UNIVERSITY 2%
SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY 2%
BALTIMORE, UNIVERSITY OF 2%
NEW YORK LAW SCHOOL 2%
WISCONSIN, UNIVERSITY OF 2%
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY 2%
WEST VIRGINIA UNIVERSITY 2%
UNIVERSITY OF NEVADA - LAS VEGAS 2%
CHICAGO, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
QUINNIPIAC UNIVERSITY 1%
CALIFORNIA-BERKELEY, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
MCGEORGE SCHOOL OF LAW 1%
PITTSBURGH, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
TULANE UNIVERSITY 1%
VALPARAISO UNIVERSITY 1%
ALABAMA, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
INDIANA UNIVERSITY - INDIANAPOLIS 1%
UNIVERSITY OF LA VERNE 1%
APPALACHIAN SCHOOL OF LAW 1%
BARRY UNIVERSITY 1%
FAULKNER UNIVERSITY 1%
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY 1%
NEW MEXICO, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
ST. THOMAS UNIVERSITY (FLORIDA) 1%
IDAHO, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
TOLEDO, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
NORTH CAROLINA, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
LEWIS AND CLARK COLLEGE 1%
KENTUCKY, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
WESTERN NEW ENGLAND UNIVERSITY 1%
RUTGERS UNIVERSITY-NEWARK 1%
REGENT UNIVERSITY 1%
DEPAUL UNIVERSITY 1%
JOHN MARSHALL LAW SCHOOL 1%
AVE MARIA SCHOOL OF LAW 1%
SUFFOLK UNIVERSITY 1%
FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY 1%
KANSAS, UNIVERSITY OF 1%
ROGER WILLIAMS UNIVERSITY 1%
GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY 1%
ALBANY LAW SCHOOL OF UNION UNIVERSITY 1%
VERMONT LAW SCHOOL 1%
LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY 0%
CHARLESTON SCHOOL OF LAW 0%
GEORGIA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY 0%
TEXAS TECH UNIVERSITY 0%
VILLANOVA UNIVERSITY 0%
LOYOLA UNIVERSITY-NEW ORLEANS 0%
CALIFORNIA WESTERN SCHOOL OF LAW 0%
CHICAGO-KENT COLLEGE OF LAW-IIT 0%
ST. MARY'S UNIVERSITY 0%
EMORY UNIVERSITY 0%
NOVA SOUTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY 0%
NEW ENGLAND LAW | BOSTON 0%
VIRGINIA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
TEXAS AT AUSTIN, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
SOUTH TEXAS COLLEGE OF LAW 0%
THOMAS M. COOLEY SCHOOL OF LAW - LANSING 0%
GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY 0%
THOMAS M. COOLEY LAW SCHOOL 0%
AKRON, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
ARIZONA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
ARKANSAS, FAYETTEVILLE, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
ARKANSAS, LITTLE ROCK, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
CALIFORNIA-IRVINE, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
CAMPBELL UNIVERSITY 0%
CAPITAL UNIVERSITY 0%
CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF AMERICA 0%
CHAPMAN UNIVERSITY 0%
CLEVELAND STATE UNIVERSITY 0%
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY 0%
CONNECTICUT, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
CORNELL UNIVERSITY 0%
CREIGHTON UNIVERSITY 0%
DAYTON, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
DETROIT MERCY, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
DRAKE UNIVERSITY 0%
DUQUESNE UNIVERSITY 0%
FLORIDA A&M UNIVERSITY 0%
GENERIC UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW 0%
GONZAGA UNIVERSITY 0%
HAMLINE UNIVERSITY 0%
HOUSTON, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
HOWARD UNIVERSITY 0%
INTER AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OF PUERTO RICO 0%
IOWA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
LOUISVILLE, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
MAINE, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY 0%
MEMPHIS, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
MISSISSIPPI COLLEGE 0%
MISSISSIPPI, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
MISSOURI-KANSAS CITY, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
MONTANA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
NEBRASKA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
NEW HAMPSHIRE UNIVERSITY OF 0%
NEW YORK UNIVERSITY 0%
NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL UNIVERSITY 0%
NORTHERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY 0%
NOTRE DAME, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
OHIO NORTHERN UNIVERSITY 0%
OKLAHOMA CITY UNIVERSITY 0%
OKLAHOMA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
PENNSYLVANIA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
PONTIFICAL CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF P.R. 0%
PUERTO RICO, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
RICHMOND, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
RUTGERS UNIVERSITY-CAMDEN 0%
SAMFORD UNIVERSITY 0%
SAN FRANCISCO, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
SEATTLE UNIVERSITY 0%
SETON HALL UNIVERSITY 0%
SOUTH CAROLINA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY-CARBONDALE 0%
SOUTHERN METHODIST UNIVERSITY 0%
SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY 0%
SOUTHWESTERN LAW SCHOOL 0%
ST. THOMAS, UNIVERSITY OF (MINNESOTA) 0%
STANFORD UNIVERSITY 0%
TENNESSEE, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
TEXAS A&M UNIVERSITY 0%
TEXAS SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY 0%
THOMAS JEFFERSON SCHOOL OF LAW 0%
THOMAS M. COOLEY LAW SCHOOL - ANN ARBOR 0%
THOMAS M. COOLEY SCHOOL OF LAW - AUBURN HILLS 0%
THOMAS M. COOLEY SCHOOL OF LAW - GRAND RAPIDS 0%
TOURO COLLEGE 0%
TULSA, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
UNIVERSITY OF BUFFALO-SUNY 0%
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS DARTMOUTH 0%
UTAH, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY 0%
WASHBURN UNIVERSITY 0%
WASHINGTON, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
WESTERN STATE COLLEGE OF LAW 0%
WHITTIER LAW SCHOOL 0%
WIDENER UNIVERSITY-DELAWARE 0%
WIDENER UNIVERSITY-HARRISBURG 0%
WILLIAM MITCHELL COLLEGE OF LAW 0%
WYOMING, UNIVERSITY OF 0%
I was answering the question I quoted.LurkerShirker wrote:Robb's list is irrelevant to the LST number. The LST number excludes the non-full time, long term jobs, so none of the short term part time jobs on the list have inflated the LST score. It is the schools which have a lot of jobs that they call long term, full time JD req'd - such as the top schools -- that are inflating their LST score and US News score.
The LST number should list the full time, long term jobs without the school funded jobs, then have an asterix which includes them.
I think they should not be included because they are designed by the schools merely to inflate numbers for rankings purposes and are not really long term jobs and do not pay very much. At G-Town, a top school, I think they pay $12,000 per year and call the jobs long term and full time. That is closer to a volunteer internship than a job, and that is perhaps less than minimum wage. If you want to count a school funded job, I think the schools should have to pay a minimum of something like a minimally reasonable wage -- how about $35,000 plus insurance that they pay their other employees?Robb wrote:I was answering the question I quoted.LurkerShirker wrote:Robb's list is irrelevant to the LST number. The LST number excludes the non-full time, long term jobs, so none of the short term part time jobs on the list have inflated the LST score. It is the schools which have a lot of jobs that they call long term, full time JD req'd - such as the top schools -- that are inflating their LST score and US News score.
The LST number should list the full time, long term jobs without the school funded jobs, then have an asterix which includes them.
You very assertively state what LST should do without saying why. Why do you think long term, full time, Bar Passage Required school funded jobs should not be included?
Do you have a source on this? I wonder how much Yale pays their 7% of students in school funded jobs.LurkerShirker wrote:I think they should not be included because they are designed by the schools merely to inflate numbers for rankings purposes and are not really long term jobs and do not pay very much. At G-Town, a top school, I think they pay $12,000 per year and call the jobs long term and full time. That is closer to a volunteer internship than a job, and that is perhaps less than minimum wage. If you want to count a school funded job, I think the schools should have to pay a minimum of something like a minimally reasonable wage -- how about $35,000 plus insurance that they pay their other employees?Robb wrote:I was answering the question I quoted.LurkerShirker wrote:Robb's list is irrelevant to the LST number. The LST number excludes the non-full time, long term jobs, so none of the short term part time jobs on the list have inflated the LST score. It is the schools which have a lot of jobs that they call long term, full time JD req'd - such as the top schools -- that are inflating their LST score and US News score.
The LST number should list the full time, long term jobs without the school funded jobs, then have an asterix which includes them.
You very assertively state what LST should do without saying why. Why do you think long term, full time, Bar Passage Required school funded jobs should not be included?
Just because they are paying you more doesn't mean it's a real job.Julius wrote:Can't speak for other schools but at mine the jobs pay ~35k, include LRAP, and can run for a year. Not sure about benefits. They seem to be entryways to real jobs for the PI folks.
The solution here is to have schools disclose salaries for school funded jobs or have LST crowdsource the data and only include jobs that can be construed as an actual salary (e.g. 30k and up). So Georgetown doesn't get to count their funding but many of the T13 can.
But it means you can afford to live and get relevant experience while looking for a real job.Desert Fox wrote:Just because they are paying you more doesn't mean it's a real job.Julius wrote:Can't speak for other schools but at mine the jobs pay ~35k, include LRAP, and can run for a year. Not sure about benefits. They seem to be entryways to real jobs for the PI folks.
The solution here is to have schools disclose salaries for school funded jobs or have LST crowdsource the data and only include jobs that can be construed as an actual salary (e.g. 30k and up). So Georgetown doesn't get to count their funding but many of the T13 can.
So does living in your moms basement. It's not a job and shouldn't count if you are trying to deduce employment percentages.A. Nony Mouse wrote:But it means you can afford to live and get relevant experience while looking for a real job.Desert Fox wrote:Just because they are paying you more doesn't mean it's a real job.Julius wrote:Can't speak for other schools but at mine the jobs pay ~35k, include LRAP, and can run for a year. Not sure about benefits. They seem to be entryways to real jobs for the PI folks.
The solution here is to have schools disclose salaries for school funded jobs or have LST crowdsource the data and only include jobs that can be construed as an actual salary (e.g. 30k and up). So Georgetown doesn't get to count their funding but many of the T13 can.
For purposes of school rankings, how does USNWR (or ATL for that matter) view these temp positions?Desert Fox wrote:No its not employment it is an internship.TheodoreKGB wrote:It's a useful statistic, but it would be much nicer not figured into the overall %.