Top Law Schools

So, my religious beliefs are a bit complicated. I am not LDS, and while I was raised Baptist I have not been a practicing member of that faith for some time (read I have not attended Church services for purposes of actual worship my entire adult life). I am not an atheist, however my beliefs would been seen by most to be heterodox of western religions and probably heresy to the LDS. I have not fully adopted all the tenants of any one major world religion to my knowledge and acknowledge I borrow beliefs from several religions to form my own identity. Still, I think that school is a good moral and ethical fit for me.

Since BYU requires an interview and recommendation from one's own Bishop from the LDS or similar lead religious official in non-LDS religions to recommend the applicant, I am at a quandary as to even attempt to apply. I don't know how to go about this "recommendation" without lying to myself or the school. I will eventually just outright ask their admissions people how-to or even If I can proceed if I have to, but I was hoping someone here might have gone through something similar and can help point me in the right direction before I blow any slim chance out of the water unnecessarily.

I think the more important question is "do you have strong ties to Utah and a burning desire to work there, plus the ability to go without a lot of debt?" I don't think BYU is going to be interested in the fine points of your religious identity.

With a 153/2.8, you have different things you need to focus on. You have to bring the LSAT up significantly to make law school even a possibility. Also, with GA residency and lack of LDSness, BYU shouldn't even be on your radar.

BigZuck wrote:With a 153/2.8, you have different things you need to focus on. You have to bring the LSAT up significantly to make law school even a possibility. Also, with GA residency and lack of LDSness, BYU shouldn't even be on your radar.

This.
Also, I'll add that there is a very strong possibility you will hate the religious/cultural environment at BYU given your own position on LDS and institutionalized religion more generally. Notre Dame is accepting of differing religious beliefs, BYU is very likely not. Don't apply.

I haven't been through this myself, but honestly, if they want a LOR from a leader in your religious community, and you don't really have a religious community (which it sounds like you don't?), I'm not sure how you'd do this without essentially finding a cleric-for-hire, which doesn't sound like something you'd be especially comfortable with. I would call them to check, if you want - maybe they have some exception for nontraditional religious beliefs. But if they require a religious leader to write a recommendation, they require a religious leader to write a recommendation.

(This is leaving aside the other issues about going to BYU that everyone else has raised.)

Hey I have some experience dealing with BYU, the interview with a religious leader of some kind isn't any kind of religious test. They are happy to take students from all religious backgrounds, and sometimes I think they actively promote diversity in that area. I believe they will work with you to make sure someone can get you the proper endorsement forms. However, the reason that the endorsement is required is because they trust a religious leader to basically make sure that you are okay with following the very strict honor code that BYU has for it's students. This code includes, no drinking or tobacco usage on or off campus at any age, no caffeine allowed on campus (including coffee, coke, pepsi, ect.), and also no premarital sexual relations. So the endorsement is just basically verifying that you are okay with following these rules, there might be others I can't remember off the top of my head.
If you are not okay with those rules, strongly reconsider attending BYU. Every year they have athletes suspended for honor code violations, and although it seems like it would be easy enough to avoid being caught participating in these activities, it can and will cause you trouble if you break the code.

BYU is a great school that offers a fairly cheap tuition rate for its ranking, especially to LDS members, and decent employment stats if you want Utah and no big law. However, be sure to know exactly what you're getting into before you apply.

Thanks for the replies folks.

Why is BYU even a possibility here?

Anyway, with your GPA, you need to bring your LSAT score up considerably before law school in general becomes viable/a decent financial decision. Also, what are the "bad softs" your profile mentions? C&f issues?

How could you possibly do law school no booze or coffee

TheSpanishMain wrote:Why is BYU even a possibility here?

Anyway, with your GPA, you need to bring your LSAT score up considerably before law school in general becomes viable/a decent financial decision. Also, what are the "bad softs" your profile mentions? C&f issues?

1) Failing out of my first college at age 19 and not growing up till mid 20s. 2) Because of that continued lack of maturity before 'growing up', I dinged myself at my first real job fairly hard and got the old resign in lieu of. 3) Later in 2009 after having had relatively grown up. a ch 7 bankrptcy due to a 9 day hospitalization while having just switched from company driver to leasing my own truck (meaning self employed insurance that only covered 1/4 of six figure bill).

flawschoolkid wrote:How could you possibly do law school no booze or coffee

I've never been into alcohol, tobacco, or other substances so continuing not to use is not an issue.


Our fellows above are right though BYU is probably out of reach. Yes I'd like to live there, about as much as I want to leave my location. Price is doable and cheaper sticker than most places except a state school in ATL which I am also not wanting to live. I realize I'm not a "highly competitive student" to most T/TT schools, and have never pretended to myself or others of any such notion.

RCSOB657 wrote:

TheSpanishMain wrote:Why is BYU even a possibility here?

Anyway, with your GPA, you need to bring your LSAT score up considerably before law school in general becomes viable/a decent financial decision. Also, what are the "bad softs" your profile mentions? C&f issues?

1) Failing out of my first college at age 19 and not growing up till mid 20s. 2) Because of that continued lack of maturity before 'growing up', I dinged myself at my first real job fairly hard and got the old resign in lieu of. 3) Later in 2009 after having had relatively grown up. a ch 7 bankrptcy due to a 9 day hospitalization while having just switched from company driver to leasing my own truck (meaning self employed insurance that only covered 1/4 of six figure bill).

I don't think these are catastrophic, unless the reason you got tossed from your first job was something criminal/fraud related.

But again, why BYU? You can't (well, shouldn't) go to a regional law school across the country where you don't have any ties. You really need to forget about applying this year, though, IMO, unless you take the December LSAT and just absolutely kill it. Your current numbers won't get you in anywhere worth going at a price worth paying. You are retaking, right?

TheSpanishMain wrote:

RCSOB657 wrote:

TheSpanishMain wrote:Why is BYU even a possibility here?

Anyway, with your GPA, you need to bring your LSAT score up considerably before law school in general becomes viable/a decent financial decision. Also, what are the "bad softs" your profile mentions? C&f issues?

1) Failing out of my first college at age 19 and not growing up till mid 20s. 2) Because of that continued lack of maturity before 'growing up', I dinged myself at my first real job fairly hard and got the old resign in lieu of. 3) Later in 2009 after having had relatively grown up. a ch 7 bankrptcy due to a 9 day hospitalization while having just switched from company driver to leasing my own truck (meaning self employed insurance that only covered 1/4 of six figure bill).

I don't think these are catastrophic, unless the reason you got tossed from your first job was something criminal/fraud related.

But again, why BYU? You can't (well, shouldn't) go to a regional law school across the country where you don't have any ties. You really need to forget about applying this year, though, IMO, unless you take the December LSAT and just absolutely kill it. Your current numbers won't get you in anywhere worth going at a price worth paying. You are retaking, right?

I am retaking next week. Thanks for your candor. Even with a retake, It will likely be a high reach if not out of reach I do realize that. I have been to every state except the two not in CONUS, and like the overall living conditions/climate (non-weather meaning). BYU because it is statistically better at costs/job outcomes than UoU, but I would be "happy" at either. I live in the same area I was born in, and even growing up a military brat this town has always been an out and back home-base, but I no longer want to come back here at age 30. I am done with life here, the climate sucks.

Oh and don't get me wrong, I am also looking at other locations with actual ties.

Do you qualify for GI Bill tuition benefits?

RCSOB657 wrote:Oh and don't get me wrong, I am also looking at other locations with actual ties.

I hear ya. The thing is, outside of the top schools, a lot of regional employers are going to give a pretty chilly reception to a random guy from across the country. What is it you want to do with a law degree?

I'm not military and my Dad retired in 2000, so no. My brothers went active as enlisted, I was attempting to go the officer route at North Georgia in 2002 but while getting qualified physically there is when I let my academics get screwed. Turns out I will still be a first generation college grad; but no, short of me busting my ass to get back into regulation fitness levels for JAG, I think the chances of me getting into the military is less than me going to a T14.


To answer TSM, I'm flexible in that regard. As you all can tell I'm not Big Law material. My goals are regional or a government suit.

RCSOB657 wrote: To answer TSM, I'm flexible in that regard. As you all can tell I'm not Big Law material. My goals are regional or a government suit.

That's all well and good (Big Law is pretty universally regarded as a miserable existence anyway) but it does mean that you can't take on much debt. The average small law/government starting salary is like 40-50k. Good luck making payments on 200k in debt on that salary.

If I were you, I'd be looking hard at splitter friendly schools in regions you can articulate ties to, and ties have to be something beyond "I've visited."

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Full disclosure: practicing Mormon (although I am a convert of 7 years, so my experience isn't exactly typical), did the 2 year mission, and attended BYU for UG.

The endorsement is simply to help you understand the honor code and other nuances (certain dress and grooming standards) unique to the university. Because you're not a Mormon there is more flexibility with regard to the adherence to the standards. This is not to say you can completely disregard your agreement to adhere to the standards, but the lines are a bit more blurry for individuals who haven't committed to live the standards as a way of life. Further, you can drink caffeine -- there is a misconception (even among some of the "rank and file" members of the church) that caffeine is off-limits, it's not. Just no coffee or tea (herbal tea is fine). But I suppose if you wanted to break all the rules it wouldn't be that challenging, as no one is particularly petty, and after all it is a HONOR code, so it's nearly exclusively on your honor. But understanding what is expected and agreeing to uphold that expectation without any intent of following through makes you an asshole --in any setting, not just regarding BYU's honor code.

I never attended BYU as a non-Mormon, but I don't think you would be bombarded with people trying to convert you -- especially at the law school where a large number of your classmates will be married and likely not spend much time in the social scene. And honestly, it's not like there is a list that identifies all of the non-Mormons; professors aren't even privy to that information, so most people will just assume you're LDS. Furthermore, at least at the UG level, when people know you're not a Mormon they usually just assume you've been invited to church or approached about it numerous times and therefore don't want to bug you about it. So other than the very rare instance that someone talks to you about it (wherein you can just tell them you're not interested and move on) it won't be a thing.

Also, not being a Latter-day Saint makes you an attractive candidate because there is virtually no one that goes to/applies to BYU unless they're a Mormon. But weigh that with the information presented above. I won't be applying to BYU and not because it isn't a fine school, but like others have said it's largely a regional school (and most students want to stay in the inner-mountain west) and it just doesn't have the opportunities I am interested in, but with your numbers you may be limited.

Again, being a convert to Mormonism and a liberal (if you're a conservative you'll probably fit in better than I would) my experience is definitely unique, but I think my assessment as pretty accurate. You (or anyone) can PM me for more info if you want -- like a copy of the Book of Mormon (kidding) -- I do have a few more detailed insights, but to preserve anonymity I will not post them here.

Toby Ziegler wrote:\ Further, you can drink caffeine -- there is a misconception (even among some of the "rank and file" members of the church) that caffeine is off-limits, it's not. Just no coffee or tea (herbal tea is fine).

lmao

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Regulus wrote:

james.bungles wrote:

Toby Ziegler wrote:\ Further, you can drink caffeine -- there is a misconception (even among some of the "rank and file" members of the church) that caffeine is off-limits, it's not. Just no coffee or tea (herbal tea is fine).

lmao

Yeah... As someone new to Mormonism Toby Ziegler probably doesn't realize that their doctrines shift and that before he joined the church, it did basically condemn anything with caffeine (although not to the degree it did coffee or tea; e.g, you could still go to the Mormon temple even if you drank Coke but not an espresso). For example, at the Missoinary Training Center in Utah all of their beverages were caffeine free when I went there over 10 years ago, and I imagine that it is still the same. Basically, the current prophet of the Mormon church (Monson) loves Coke, so he clarified that their "word of wisdom" does not ban sodas (lol). If you read the following article from 2005 (before Monson made the announcement that caffeine is okay) you will not only see where this weekend rule really came from, but you will also notice that Mormon publications used to condem caffeine.

http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_wordofwisdom.html

Ehh. I feel like I have a far greater grasp/understanding of church history (with all of its contradictions and change) than most members, who by virtue of being "lifers" are often apathetic to the philosophical implications and problems with LDS history. Further, my professional work (working for the top LDS intellectual magazine) has required in depth study of Mormon history and elements of the culture/church that are problematic. But this is all beside the point for the purposes of this thread.

wait, byu offers an admissions boost if you are not mormon? why?