Top Law Schools

Yuppy st Thomas blows

I can't imagine why you're struggling to get along with profs.
You seem totally charming!

But all joking aside... With a 43.9% employment score and 29.1% under-employment score, what did you expect?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/stu/2013/

Guess you should have spent some time on TLS before attending.

do u gots jerb?

Religion or Ethnic background play no role in grading at St Thomas. Ignore the posters obvious "issues". As a non Jewish white male I graduated in the top 10% of my class. As anyone who actually attended law school knows, grading is blind based on your exam number except in legal writing.
Yes, St Thomas is a tier four law school. But you can get an education if you work hard. And yes, jobs are not plentiful, again you have to work at it. But... if you had great grades and a huge LSAT you wouldn't find yourself in this position. So you have to make the best of the hand you are playing... instead of complaining. I do have a few classmates making six figures now. But they all specialized in Tax. It can be done, with careful planning and hard work.

Post removed.

I actually got a full ride offer from this school. After looking at the LST scores, I spoke to a few recent grads. Out of the 5 or so I spoke to, they all said how terrible it was to just even try to get a $50k a yr job and they were on Law Review. Lol.

Unfortunately everyone was spot on.

Expected this to be another gregjames thread

Good job to everyone not flattered by the scholarship. I deleted a lot of my post because it was a little destructive but if you are good at learning from people's mistakes learn from and read the replies here! Take your time don't rush into a law school just because you got a scholarship. Seriously. Take a year, relax and don't assume anything.

@ cigar man. Actually, LSAT was great, I got into a lot of schools that I coulda woulda shoulda. Also, my grades in law school were great too. I've always been employed, one way or the other and they actually helped me get a job which is why I deleted so much of my post. Issues? Nah, I'm just a human who had alot only mind and don't want people to make a bad choice.

Gregjames thread? Did they write a thread at 3 am also? lmfao sounds interesting... Post me a link?

@ cigar man again - for the record, it is entirely possible to have a career after a bad ls decision. You know how they say don't believe everything you read on the internet? Well bieve what you see on tls these ppl clearly have great advice.

Oh, and ditch your ego when deciding what skool, don't listen to your friends gf or family members unless they have experience in the area. Put a lot of weight on what you read here and decide for yourself and read mistaken genius' post at least once or twice lol. It's your life. Decide purely on what you believe will best ensure you reach your goals. Don't get pressured by the process and cliche cliche regurgitation * we can't say this stuff enough.

Young Marino wrote:I actually got a full ride offer from this school. After looking at the LST scores, I spoke to a few recent grads. Out of the 5 or so I spoke to, they all said how terrible it was to just even try to get a $50k a yr job and they were on Law Review. Lol.

LOL so you decided to say screw st thomas and you went to a school that gives you a fighting chance at a good job right?

MistakenGenius wrote:Cigarman seems like a shill.

Sorry OP, I'm not the most sympathetic to your cause. I cannot comprehend how someone could make the decision to go to law school without doing any research. Even the most basic of searches should have told you that St. Thomas is a shit-hole. I mean, fuck man, google it! On their first page of links we have Law School Transparency (which shows their atrocious employment rates), 2 links to Top Law Schools (where you can once again see the poor employment, low salaries (that they managed to collect), and high indebtedness of students there), and their wikipedia page which shows their required ABA disclosures and high costs. This was on the FIRST page. You clearly didn't do enough research, or thought you were a special snowflake who'd do well despite the odds. Hopefully this experience has taught you not to make life decisions on a whim.

Not a shill. Happy to have you PM me. I didn't say MOST of my classmates had jobs, they don't. I didn't say many could make enough to pay their student loans, they can't.

What I did say is two parts:
1) IF you are going to go to a tier four law school it is not the worst, especially in Florida. there are "puppy mills" in Jacksonville I might argue are a very bad option. And a school struggling to keep accreditation in the mid part of the state, and three other law schools with worse statistical outcomes in Florida. So yes, it is the fifth worst law school in Florida out of nine, statistically. BUT... it is older and has some alumni network in place the other TTTT's don't have as much.
2) IF you are the special snowflake and plan on attending a tier four, be realistic on how to beat the system. Don't take "animal rights jurisprudence" or "literature and the law" both taught at St Thomas. That does not equal jobs. Surprisingly, St Thomas has professors with Tax LLM's from NYU (four) and Florida (two), plus until recently the ONLY tax clinic in Florida. And run my a former IRS revenue agent/supervisor. There is some serious TAX street cred there. They have a tax certificate, and the tax graduates (all six to eight a year) tend to go on to "real" lawyer jobs for good money.

Not shilling, advising youngsters on the reality of the school. Should it be your first choice? Not likely a tier four is anyone's first choice. But the reality is it might be the hand your dealt. Play those cards as good as possible.

MistakenGenius wrote:Cigarman seems like a shill.

Swim wrote: Oh, and ditch your ego when deciding what skool, don't listen to your friends gf or family members unless they have experience in the area. Put a lot of weight on what you read here and decide for yourself and read mistaken genius' post at least once or twice lol. It's your life. Decide purely on what you believe will best ensure you reach your goals. Don't get pressured by the process and cliche cliche regurgitation * we can't say this stuff enough.

Who's shilling what now?

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cigarman wrote:

MistakenGenius wrote:Cigarman seems like a shill.

Sorry OP, I'm not the most sympathetic to your cause. I cannot comprehend how someone could make the decision to go to law school without doing any research. Even the most basic of searches should have told you that St. Thomas is a shit-hole. I mean, fuck man, google it! On their first page of links we have Law School Transparency (which shows their atrocious employment rates), 2 links to Top Law Schools (where you can once again see the poor employment, low salaries (that they managed to collect), and high indebtedness of students there), and their wikipedia page which shows their required ABA disclosures and high costs. This was on the FIRST page. You clearly didn't do enough research, or thought you were a special snowflake who'd do well despite the odds. Hopefully this experience has taught you not to make life decisions on a whim.

Not a shill. Happy to have you PM me. I didn't say MOST of my classmates had jobs, they don't. I didn't say many could make enough to pay their student loans, they can't.

What I did say is two parts:
1) IF you are going to go to a tier four law school it is not the worst, especially in Florida. there are "puppy mills" in Jacksonville I might argue are a very bad option. And a school struggling to keep accreditation in the mid part of the state, and three other law schools with worse statistical outcomes in Florida. So yes, it is the fifth worst law school in Florida out of nine, statistically. BUT... it is older and has some alumni network in place the other TTTT's don't have as much.
2) IF you are the special snowflake and plan on attending a tier four, be realistic on how to beat the system. Don't take "animal rights jurisprudence" or "literature and the law" both taught at St Thomas. That does not equal jobs. Surprisingly, St Thomas has professors with Tax LLM's from NYU (four) and Florida (two), plus until recently the ONLY tax clinic in Florida. And run my a former IRS revenue agent/supervisor. There is some serious TAX street cred there. They have a tax certificate, and the tax graduates (all six to eight a year) tend to go on to "real" lawyer jobs for good money.

Not shilling, advising youngsters on the reality of the school. Should it be your first choice? Not likely a tier four is anyone's first choice. But the reality is it might be the hand your dealt. Play those cards as good as possible.

I really don't know how attending a certain school could be "the hand you're dealt." Law school is a voluntary choice with many opportunities to avoid matriculating along the way. Even with a truly horrific gpa one can still go to a good school by getting a great LSAT score. So if it's "[insert tier four]" or bust, TCR is do something else or retake until you get accepted somewhere better. (Additionally, the success of a few graduates many years ago is completely irrelevant.)

MistakenGenius wrote:
No, not everyone from St. Thomas is going to have a horrible outcome. But the odds are seriously against you. The estimated cost of attendance for 3 years is $233,742. The average grad leaves the school $150,000 in debt. If you look at their employment numbers, you can see that you have roughly a 1.5% chance of getting a truly good outcome. Meanwhile, you are 25 times more likely to be unemployed at the end of your three years. It might have worked out for you, but it's really not reasonable to go to St. Thomas even on a full-scholarship. It's always sad to say this, but if that is the hand you're dealt, then maybe you shouldn't go to law school at all. If you're not one of those lucky few, it's the equivalent of financial suicide.

And I don't think it's that unusual that your school had some professors with nice degrees. I'm at Yale and would jump on the academic bandwagon in a heartbeat. You get paid nicely, don't work as many hours as Biglaw, have a lot of job security (unless your toilet closes down). Legal academia is a total ripoff of naive students (ex: OP), but it's sweet for the profs.

I agree with 90% of your thoughts with three modifications. First, the job statistic is measured at 9 months and is weighted toward law firm hiring right after school. It would be more interesting to see in say a year how the numbers compare. Obviously Yale will still be at 99.9%. But I think you will see variance of the t-4s. For example, I'll wager that Barry University has a similar nine month employment rate, but I'd also venture a wager that a year out the St Thomas graduates have placed in significantly more jobs. I am saying not all t-4s are equal, so pick wisely. St Thomas has a bigger and more established alumni network than Barry for example.
I also am concerned that the statistics can't be used to just say 1.6% of people get quality jobs. I know that is false, it doesn't measure the LLM effect, of in essence laundering your degree. My eight tax classmates all went on to the top three TAX LLM programs and generally got rather good jobs. But yes in general the debt load is insane and unconscionable. My point is some people are going to go to law school regardless of the statistics, dumb or not. So once you drink the cool aid, best pick the best flavor you can afford, get into and has the best outcome. For me, because of my GPA it was St Thomas, and family considerations where I could live. Did I send my son there? Nope... He goes to a t-15 school.

The unusual part about the nice degrees comment is important to understand. An here is where inexperience may play a role in many understanding this.
Yes, EVERY law school is full of Harvard, Yale etc professors. BUT... the key is they teach the courses that equal ZERO jobs unless you went to T-20 and up. Sure my torts prof went to Harvard... big whoop. The point about the TAX LLMs I quoted is those professors can make big money in the real world, verses teaching. You don't find that kind of concentration of tax people at tier four often. For example the son at the T-15 school has less tax classes available than my Tier four, and the professors have less tax credentials. Basically, there is a historical reason the tax program is strong at St Thomas, one professor founded it and teaches because of religious conviction. He recruited the others to a large degree that retired from up north and teach in retirement type thing. That's why ST Thomas and NOT Florida has a tax clinic for example. That's why as a Tier 4 every year it gets people into NYU, Georgetown and Florida tax programs. That's a HUGE feat. They take all warm bodies in 99.9% of all LLMS , but as this board correctly often says, the only llm worth it is tax". When I went to GULC they had 70 slots and several thousand applicants. My fourth tier school placed THREE of those seventy slots. So that's big. Thus my original advice to the guy complaining about St Thomas, was "you picked it, shut up and do something about your situation, and here is an avenue."

Now having said all that. I agree 100% its not worth going there on a full scholarship... that means you are strong enough to go to a better school and improve your outcomes. My essay is only AFTER you have the crappy LSAT and bad GPA, and can't be talked sense into and you are hell bent on going to law school, not all their fours are the same, Top law schools should take a bit of time to realize that and differentiate a bit. And help people be LESS suicidal and make better choices and what they take in law school. I want to throw up when I visit my school and people take stupid useless classes. We have visiting scholars studying slavery and economics in Spain right now... great lots of jobs in those areas? I think not. Yet this mush filled students line up for that stuff.

I am proud of my school for what it is. Yet, I am realistic to know it is a great handicap. At OCI at Georgetown LLM my classmates got maybe 1/10th the interviews because of St Thomas. But, they at least got some and succeeded. They didn't get big law at $160K, but they got big accounting at $115k.
Your mileage may vary!
Cigar

"MistakenGenius"
I really don't know how attending a certain school could be "the hand you're dealt." Law school is a voluntary choice with many opportunities to avoid matriculating along the way. Even with a truly horrific gpa one can still go to a good school by getting a great LSAT score. So if it's "[insert tier four]" or bust, TCR is do something else or retake until you get accepted somewhere better. (Additionally, the success of a few graduates many years ago is completely irrelevant.)

Two points.
Your thoughts are 100% valid for youngsters with options. I can think of a few situations where the advice isn't as valid.
People who are anchored to a location have a problem. There may be one law school in the area, and those with children can't suddenly move. Or those with work obligations, for example. Older students, those returning from military service with family constraints, people like me who's industry got destroyed by technology or governmental regulation. Basically those starting over, have a different "hand they were dealt". And law school, although a high risk option is better than the other alternatives. I know in my case It allowed me to use years of experience I could no longer charge for and turn it into something useful and monetize it.
And I never said a few graduates years ago. When I spoke of the St Thomas tax program I was talking the last ten years to present day. A measurable consistent flow of about 3% of St Thomas class go onto NYU, GULC and Florida, the top tax programs by far.

Taking tax law courses is not going to take away from the fact that you attended a TTTT that employers do not want to hire from. Most employers do not care what courses you took because classes do not teach you how to actually practice law anyways.

You have the same chance of getting a NYU or GULC LLM from about anywhere. You are still just talking about maybe 5% of the class that ends up with good outcomes. It is not worth it to attend this school under any circumstance as the odds of having a good outcome are horrible.