Top Law Schools

I am an international student with an LSAT score of 173 and Above Average Undergrad Academic Performance (which rarely matters for law schools other than YHS). I am thinking about applying ED program in either CLS or NYU. I bet there has been zillions of threads talking about this, but they are mostly about domestic students.

There is the consensus that as long as you are admitted via ED program, the law school you are admitted to do not have the incentive to give you scholarship to attract you anymore. So I am not setting my eyes on merit-based scholarship. But I am wondering whether I can still get equal chance to get certain need-based grants. I know someone from my country who got $20k per year, but she has no idea whether it was need-based only or combination of need-based and merit-based.

Also, if I can get certain need-based grants regardless me applying ED or RD, which one should I apply?

Here are some pros and cons I have listed for each school:

CLS
Pros: 1. Ivy League (meh, but still if I go back to my home country after graduation, this might be more helpful than I think)
2. Marginally better big law placement
3. Relatively cheaper COA
Cons: 1. CLS wait listed almost every applicant last year from my country, ranging from LSAT 177 to 175 to 174 to 172 with ED. God knows what would happen next year. It's highly likely I might waste an ED chance.
2. It has rumor that CLS students are less chilled and cool, I am a total social person. Being around boring people would literally kill me.

NYU
Pros: 1. Better Location
2. More friendly to students from my country
3. Students are more of "my type"
4. I am quite interested in doing PI, but this has not been decided, so this is marginal.
Cons: 1. Less prestigious (as I mentioned, this is actually really important since I might come back home. People would be like: Wow Columbia, that's awesome man! Oh NYU, not bad! )
2. Higher COA


So, THANKS!

Don't ED if you have a 173

Not sure if I can help with your question, but just wanted to point out that NYU COA is less than Columbia, not the other way around.

NYU: $83,722

Columbia: $85,755

In the grand scheme of things, the difference is not very large anyway.

arklaw13 wrote:Don't ED if you have a 173

Things are wayyyy harder for international students. I still don't get it why Columbia wait listed 177 (probably YP), but 175 and 174?!

blueberrycrumble wrote:Not sure if I can help with your question, but just wanted to point out that NYU COA is less than Columbia, not the other way around.

NYU: $83,722

Columbia: $85,755

In the grand scheme of things, the difference is not very large anyway.

Oh ok, thanks! Yeah true, the difference is negligible when it's over 80k per year.. I guess I can eliminate that consideration.

MadagascarYX wrote:

arklaw13 wrote:Don't ED if you have a 173

Things are wayyyy harder for international students. I still don't get it why Columbia wait listed 177 (probably YP), but 175 and 174?!

I've seen domestic student with those LSATs who were waitlisted as well. Obviously high LSAT is a big pull for schools but maybe those students had... no softs and poor PS? C&F issues? Those applicants youre looking at may not have been ding'ed because theyre international.

MadagascarYX wrote:

arklaw13 wrote:Don't ED if you have a 173

Things are wayyyy harder for international students. I still don't get it why Columbia wait listed 177 (probably YP), but 175 and 174?!

Don't limit yourself to NYU and CLS. Apply RD to the entire T14 and see what happens. You'll almost certainly be paying sticker if you do ED.

arklaw13 wrote:

MadagascarYX wrote:

arklaw13 wrote:Don't ED if you have a 173

Things are wayyyy harder for international students. I still don't get it why Columbia wait listed 177 (probably YP), but 175 and 174?!

Don't limit yourself to NYU and CLS. Apply RD to the entire T14 and see what happens. You'll almost certainly be paying sticker if you do ED.

Well here comes another important issue: visa. As far as I have studied, it is really hard for international students from, say, lower T14 to find big law firms that are willing to sponsor your H1-B visa. There is a consensus in my country that you have no trouble finding one if you are from YHS, little trouble if CCN, getting real hard lower than T6...

arklaw13 wrote:

MadagascarYX wrote:

arklaw13 wrote:Don't ED if you have a 173

Things are wayyyy harder for international students. I still don't get it why Columbia wait listed 177 (probably YP), but 175 and 174?!

You'll almost certainly be paying sticker if you do ED.

Oh also, can I possibly get need based grants if I do ED?

MadagascarYX wrote:

arklaw13 wrote:

MadagascarYX wrote:

arklaw13 wrote:Don't ED if you have a 173

Things are wayyyy harder for international students. I still don't get it why Columbia wait listed 177 (probably YP), but 175 and 174?!

You'll almost certainly be paying sticker if you do ED.

Oh also, can I possibly get need based grants if I do ED?

Depends on the school. HYS do need based, obviously, but I'm not sure of CLS or NYU do. Most of the T14 do strictly merit-based, if I remember correctly.

MadagascarYX wrote:I am an international student with an LSAT score of 173 and Above Average Undergrad Academic Performance (which rarely matters for law schools other than YHS). I am thinking about applying ED program in either CLS or NYU. I bet there has been zillions of threads talking about this, but they are mostly about domestic students.

There is the consensus that as long as you are admitted via ED program, the law school you are admitted to do not have the incentive to give you scholarship to attract you anymore. So I am not setting my eyes on merit-based scholarship. But I am wondering whether I can still get equal chance to get certain need-based grants. I know someone from my country who got $20k per year, but she has no idea whether it was need-based only or combination of need-based and merit-based.

Also, if I can get certain need-based grants regardless me applying ED or RD, which one should I apply?

Here are some pros and cons I have listed for each school:

CLS
Pros: 1. Ivy League (meh, but still if I go back to my home country after graduation, this might be more helpful than I think)
2. Marginally better big law placement
3. Relatively cheaper COA
Cons: 1. CLS wait listed almost every applicant last year from my country, ranging from LSAT 177 to 175 to 174 to 172 with ED. God knows what would happen next year. It's highly likely I might waste an ED chance.
2. It has rumor that CLS students are less chilled and cool, I am a total social person. Being around boring people would literally kill me.

NYU
Pros: 1. Better Location
2. More friendly to students from my country
3. Students are more of "my type"
4. I am quite interested in doing PI, but this has not been decided, so this is marginal.
Cons: 1. Less prestigious (as I mentioned, this is actually really important since I might come back home. People would be like: Wow Columbia, that's awesome man! Oh NYU, not bad! )
2. Higher COA


So, THANKS!

ED Cornell.

don't ED
the advantage is negligible
and you'll regret not being able to consider other offers

also there are a million threads on cls vs nyu
use the search function

eta: just realized you're trying to get need aid with ed
very, very difficult to get
you will almost certainly pay sticker (over $300k debt-financed at repayment)

The bigger issue here is that while ED for sticker anywhere in this day and age is borderline insanity, EDing with the intention of possibly working in a country other than the US (which will qualify you for neither biglaw salaries nor PSLF) AND assuming you're unable to get federal loans because you're an international student, you're very quickly up shit creek.

ED to Northwestern for the full ride.

Alternatively, don't ED anywhere and take the highest-ranked school that offers you a full ride.

twenty wrote:The bigger issue here is that while ED for sticker anywhere in this day and age is borderline insanity, EDing with the intention of possibly working in a country other than the US (which will qualify you for neither biglaw salaries nor PSLF) AND assuming you're unable to get federal loans because you're an international student, you're very quickly up shit creek.

Yeah, OP, what's the money situation here? Is this all debt financed? Are you eligible for loans? Are you planning on working in the US or wherever you're from?

why are these the only schools you're considering??

james.bungles wrote:why are these the only schools you're considering??

This. I'd take Cornell full ride over sticker at either one of those any day.

TheSpanishMain wrote:

twenty wrote:The bigger issue here is that while ED for sticker anywhere in this day and age is borderline insanity, EDing with the intention of possibly working in a country other than the US (which will qualify you for neither biglaw salaries nor PSLF) AND assuming you're unable to get federal loans because you're an international student, you're very quickly up shit creek.

Yeah, OP, what's the money situation here? Is this all debt financed? Are you eligible for loans? Are you planning on working in the US or wherever you're from?

No, I'm not eligible for loans (federal loans are for American citizens and I cannot find a cosigner for private loan), so all I'm counting on is need based grants or institutional scholarships. And I can afford approximately $150k by myself. Also, I am planning on working in the US if possible.

oh
well you're not getting any need aid unfortunately
not if you can pony up $150k on your own
and merit aid is almost certainly a no-go with ED
back to the drawing board dude

TBH, internationals generally have very different cycles. CLS almost wled everyone who did ug in my country, from 175 to lower 170 eds. NYU wled almost everyone who's below 175. As far as I know, their applications r ok with no C&F issues.

Either ED to NU where you can guarantee yourself no debt after graduation and a big law job (a job that will get you a visa) is still very very possible if not probable or don't ED anywhere since assuming $140K in debt (which you may not even be able to get the loans to pay for your school) for the marginally better possibility of getting accepted ED with the extra cost but only a slightly better chance of getting big law doesn't make sense.

If you're not comfortable with going to NU for free at least give yourself the chance to get some money from CCN, an acceptance at HYS (where need aid actually exists), or a near full ride at another T7-14.

need aid is a tricky thing
esp if need/merit aid is given as a lump sum and not broken down
there is true need aid outside of hys but it is exceedingly difficult to get
you have to demonstrate considerable, maybe extraordinary need
people assume that bc their parents aren't wealthy they'll get it
which is plainly not the case
and op, with his financial resources, almost certainly won't get any

...

lawlorbust wrote:so the concern is about securing such an offer in the first place. This is obviously almost as doable from Penn, Virginia, etc. as it is from CCN, which argues for the OP applying more widely.

Is that really the case? I mean wouldn't it be much easier for students to find a biglaw job if they graduate from CCN than from other T7-14?

I am really interested in doing international law & Competition law, both of which have most of their markets in NYC. So basically I have set my eyes on working in NYC. That's one of the reasons why I said I wanted to ED CLS or NYU in the first place. But if I go to other schools, say, Northwestern or Michigan or Penn, do I get roughly the same chance to secure an biglaw offer in NYC?

Brut wrote:need aid is a tricky thing
esp if need/merit aid is given as a lump sum and not broken down
there is true need aid outside of hys but it is exceedingly difficult to get
you have to demonstrate considerable, maybe extraordinary need
people assume that bc their parents aren't wealthy they'll get it
which is plainly not the case
and op, with his financial resources, almost certainly won't get any

This.
Gotta think twice before making decision. Thanks dude!