Top Law Schools

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:54 pm**

What is the difference between these schools. I have gotten accepted into both, which one would be the better investment? I live in central jersey so if I choose Camden I will have to shell out an extra 10 grand a year for an apartment for living expenses, but if I choose Newark, its about a 40 minute commute each way which is do able. Camden has slightly better employment statistics, but Newark has better median starting salary. I would prefer to practice in the North Jersey/New York area, but Philly wouldn't be so bad either.

Thought?

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:03 pm**

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

~~-The schools you are considering~~
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:04 pm**

Retake and don't go to either of those schools.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:07 pm**

i don't think id call picking up unemployment checks practicing

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:43 pm**

If OP has full scholarships and is absolutely sure s/he wants to practice in local gov or small firms in NJ, then these options are fine. Otherwise, I generally agree with retake. At least wait for OP to post the info.

disclaimer: I attend one of these schools.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:28 pm**

Yes I really want either to clerk in Central/North Jersey or start my own general practice in Central Jersey. Both these schools have really good clerkship placements. My main priority is to save money, I really don't care about getting into Biglaw, I am totally comfortable working at a small firm for a few years to get experience or clerking. I have been working as a paralegal at a small general practice firm in Central Jersey for the past 4 years, and it has been the most rewarding experience of my life. I don't care about fancy cars or huge houses. My boss has a shitload of debt from Fordham, but still manages a good lifestyle. He actually makes really good money in my eyes. Enough to pay his student loans, take care of a family of 4, and afford a mortgage on a house in Livingston(one of the better towns in NJ, Chris Christie lives there) I am getting the same amount of money from both schools fyi. I want to stay instate and paying an extra 20 grand a year to go to Seton Hall doesn't really make sense to me.

Some stats
Rutgers Camden

Yearly tuition, 2012-2013: $22,746 (in-state), $34,478 (out-of-state)
Bar passage rate in New Jersey: unknown
LST employment score, 2012: 62.6%
Median private sector starting salary, 2011: $67,000, 52% reporting

Rutgers Newark

Yearly Tuition: $21,302 (In-state) $30,307 (Out-of-state)
Bar passage rate: 80.0%
Percent of graduates employed 9 months after graduation: 95.3%
Median private sector starting salary: $115,000

Right now I'm think Newark. Camden had accepted me alot earlier so I paid the deposit, but it seems to me it is worth it to take the loss of deposit and go the Newark. There is only one catch, I signed a lease for an apartment in Camden and paid 1st month and security deposit. The lease however starts on August 1st. Im hoping to get out of the lease and just take the loss on the first month and security deposit if I have too.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:37 pm**

Dear god no.

Do not pay a dime for any of these schools. Given your career goals, it might be okay to attend one of these schools for free, especially if you can live with your parents during law school.

Your chances of even having a career as an attorney lasting more than 12 months at these schools is slim.

Posted: **Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:43 pm**

dude, you didn't provide us with all the info we asked for. there's a reason we asked for your LSAT/GPA, how many times you've taken the LSAT, and how you will be financing your education. the right thing might be to retake and apply again next cycle for a chance at scholarship $$$. and we asked for TOTAL COA, not the tuition per year. how much money are you going to be taking out in loans for each school?

transferror wrote:
In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

~~-The schools you are considering~~
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:56 pm**

Arij.Syed wrote: Rutgers Newark

...

Median private sector starting salary: $115,000

HA

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:38 pm**

i have a friend who went to rutgers newark, graduated two years ago
landed below median, couldn't get a paying legal job
eventually, after hundreds, maybe thousands of rejections, he just gave up
he's in a very dark place right now, i'm worried about his mental health

anyways

please post the requested info so that we can actually give you a straight answer to your question

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:22 pm**

mephistopheles wrote:
Arij.Syed wrote: Rutgers Newark

...

Median private sector starting salary: $115,000

HA

How is it even legal for them to say that?

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:38 am**

Brut wrote:i have a friend who went to rutgers newark, graduated two years ago
landed below median, couldn't get a paying legal job
eventually, after hundreds, maybe thousands of rejections, he just gave up
he's in a very dark place right now, i'm worried about his mental health

anyways

please post the requested info so that we can actually give you a straight answer to your question

How many interviews did he get? And, setting aside your friendship, if you interviewed him would you hire him? P.s. if you are 3.0 or below from a non-t14 school, you're not getting hired unless daddy knows the right people.

OP, how much financial aid are they offering you for 1L?

Class of 2013 employment was rough for R-N, as that class was about 35% larger than their typical class (a big whoops in this economy). Camdens classes have shrunk and shrunk, particularly since the 2012 entrants. I think, all things equal, Camden and Newark have similar employment numbers. Keep an eye on the Class of '14 9-month report this winter, documenting more appropriately-sized classes. NJ large firm hiring has fallen off catastrophically, by the way, and that needs to be considered as a general matter. Those firms not named Lowenstein Sandler and a few others all want you to clerk first. And p.s. Lowenstein hires like 10 per year, like 2 Rutgers, 2 Seton, 6 t14.

But I digress. Give us more info please.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:19 am**

This is not the cite to get advice about picking law schools. The trolls are out in full force already.

If this is any help, Above the Law, a website that is just as cynical as the trolls on here consistently has Rutgers-Camden in its Top 50 schools. Also, since you are a NJ resident, you already have in-state tuition at both schools which is good too (even though Rutgers-Camden offers in-state tuition to everyone). My suggestion, pick the school that costs the least. The less debt you have, the better things will be. The only thing you can guarantee about law school prior to beginning is your amount of debt, choosing the school that cost less is always the safer be when comparing similar schools. Plus, these schools are merging next fall and will just be Rutgers Law, so I can't imagine job stuff matters.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:54 am**

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:15 am**

nick417 wrote:This is not the cite to get advice about picking law schools. The trolls are out in full force already.

If this is any help, Above the Law, a website that is just as cynical as the trolls on here consistently has Rutgers-Camden in its Top 50 schools. Also, since you are a NJ resident, you already have in-state tuition at both schools which is good too (even though Rutgers-Camden offers in-state tuition to everyone). My suggestion, pick the school that costs the least. The less debt you have, the better things will be. The only thing you can guarantee about law school prior to beginning is your amount of debt, choosing the school that cost less is always the safer be when comparing similar schools. Plus, these schools are merging next fall and will just be Rutgers Law, so I can't imagine job stuff matters.

Instate tuition isn't "good," that'll set you back about 80K before you spend anything on COL. At schools like this, you really shouldn't pay any tuition. Anything more than about 50K debt would be a bad idea.

Curious as to what you mean by "trolls" on here. Be specific.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:17 am**

BigZuck wrote: Curious as to what you mean by "trolls" on here. Be specific.

I'll leave it to Nick to explain himself, but I think the better word might be histrionic robots. Posters who go far beyond the positive measure of reminding applicants to be real about their employment expectations and to avoid paying full price at regional schools (great advice), but rather march right over all logical cliffs in describing, in their unassailable omniscience, what will happen if you attend a regional school. You know, the now-perpetual advice about how janitor school is preferable to Rutgers, Seton, Temple, what-have-you. Trusted voices, really. I'm thinking that's what Nick means...

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:45 am**

donewithannarbor wrote:
BigZuck wrote: Curious as to what you mean by "trolls" on here. Be specific.
I'll leave it to Nick to explain himself, but I think the better word might be histrionic robots. Posters who go far beyond the positive measure of reminding applicants to be real about their employment expectations and to avoid paying full price at regional schools (great advice), but rather march right over all logical cliffs in describing, in their unassailable omniscience, what will happen if you attend a regional school. You know, the now-perpetual advice about how janitor school is preferable to Rutgers, Seton, Temple, what-have-you. Trusted voices, really. I'm thinking that's what Nick means...

I missed the janitor comment

I think as a general matter that trade school would be preferable to BIG DEBT at a regional school.

These schools are fine with modest expectations (small firm/local government work, etc.) and not a whole lot of debt (I said no more than 50K, that's not a hard line but about right to me).

People make hyperbolic jokes and stuff (it is the Internet after all) but the message is super duper sound, IMO

Didn't really notice any trolls here but maybe I didn't read the thread closely enough. Perhaps Nick can explain what he meant.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:36 pm**

donewithannarbor wrote: I'll leave it to Nick to explain himself, but I think the better word might be histrionic robots. Posters who go far beyond the positive measure of reminding applicants to be real about their employment expectations and to avoid paying full price at regional schools (great advice), but rather march right over all logical cliffs in describing, in their unassailable omniscience, what will happen if you attend a regional school. You know, the now-perpetual advice about how janitor school is preferable to Rutgers, Seton, Temple, what-have-you. Trusted voices, really. I'm thinking that's what Nick means...

Janitor school is preferable to Rutgers, Seton Hall, Temple, etc. if you're paying anywhere close to sticker.

If you don't believe that, than you have absolutely no idea what the legal job market is like these days, especially in big metropolitan areas like NYC (where the schools you listed are near), Chicago, LA, DC, and SF. There's literally tens of thousands of attorneys in each of these cities that are unemployed and living with their parents, volunteering somewhere if they're lucky--begging for any table scraps that gives their resume some semblance of a job. And a lot of these people are graduates from schools ranked way higher than Rutgers/SH/Temple. Many of them will eventually leave law because they can't afford to work for nothing or work only sporadic hours like you do with document review.

If it weren't for $0 monthly payments on PAYE and the bankruptcy exception for student loans, there would be probably close to 100,000 attorneys in this country declaring bankruptcy within minutes. Janitors don't have that problem.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:16 pm**

You keep dodging the COA question. I'd take out no more than 75K for each of these schools, since if you're lucky enough to get a FT job you'll be making about 45-50K.

Posted: **Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:53 am**

a janitorial supervisor with experience may earn $41,750 a year or more, according to the BLS
i'm getting a little tired of this constant shaming of janitors here on tls
these are real jobs in real demand, and you're not better than they are just because you will be getting/have gotten a jd

these jobs ought to be coveted, not disparaged, by the unemployed grads of rutgers-newark
remember, 44% of rutgers-newark grads failed to find FT/LT/JD-required work last year
and an astonishing 13% of grads from rutgers-newark are completely unemployed, not even temping or working a cash register
these rutgers-newark grads should seriously consider a custodial position in a school or some other government building
this type of work will qualify them for PSLF, so debt is forgiven in ten years, and no tax bomb
and they'll likely have to pay very little each month on PAYE
this could be a real boon to many a rutgers-newark grad

one tip though, best to probably leave rutgers-newark off the resume when you're applying
that'll probably be an auto-ding

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