Oregon ($$$) V Florida (Miami $$) Forum

[sidhesadie]

Just wanted to clarify that i'm open to any type of business law (small business, midlaw, biglaw, employment/labor, etc.). Given this, would I still be able to pay off my debts if I went to either Miami or Oregon?

To NYC poster: I got the data about Legal markets from http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/900021 ... ring-2014/

If I lower my expectations to any median or avg. salary job, would I eventually be able to pay off my debts coming from these schools? I have some ties to both FL and OR.

If by "job" you mean "any job I could have gotten without going to law school", then sure, if you get a full ride to Oregon (without stips), then you could pay those loans off really slowly with the $10 an hour retail job you are likely to get. If you mean a full time, JD required, legal job, then almost definitely NO. And your desired area of law is a pipe dream around here...there isn't a lot of 'business law' in Oregon to begin with. Employment/Labor would be the only plausible bet, but you'd still lose out to a comparable Oregonian in most cases.

Seriously...I can't overstate ties in Oregon. Unless you have a spouse or parents in Oregon you've neglected to mention, this isn't a good plan.

I don't know if Florida is as bad about ties, but $140k in loans can't be paid off with a "regular" job very easily, so I'd say no on that one too, although I guess you can pay-as-you-earn them for 25 years.

PAYE and IBR are 20 years...not 25. Don't try and cheat OP into extra years. So good news OP...you'll be paying school loans until 2037! It'll go by in no time! Or....and just hear me out, you could retake and go to a better school with little debt and enjoy a better life.

Oh yep sorry about that, I'm an old borrower with old loans so my IBR was 25 yrs.

[daleearnhardt123]

Biglaw is limited in South FL so doubt there are too many T14 grads there w/o ties. I assume most are from regionals. And yes, 60% employment is not completely terrible, but once you add in 20% underemployment, no ties and $140k debt then OPs plan seems like total garbage.

I have some ties to FL, but would a 50-65k a year JD-required job (assuming the worst outcome besides unemployment or underemployment) be realistic to pay off 140k?

Are you serious? This is not the "worst outcome" besides unemployment or 'under'employment, though who knows what the hell you are thinking when you say underemployment. At Miami you probably have a 15% chance of making 50k+ when you graduate.

Firms of >50 + Fedclerkships = 13% of the class. I'll be generous and say a handful of the grads listed under "government" crack 50k in their first year. So, 15% total. NONE of the grads that LST designates as "Business" are making 50k. They are--if they're lucky--at a shit-startup making ZERO and given equity, or they're working at home depot.

Edit: Oh, and "50-65k" is not enough to service 140k of debt. Are you nuts?

[MrSebastian]

Yes, enjoy bringing home $4500/mo pretax and having $2000 of that get sucked away for loan repayment. Then you'll have the challenge of affording Miami rent and living expenses.

There is zero need to go to law school to achieve a $50-65K income level. Not only will you have no debt, but you'll likely be making that anyway after devoting 3 years to almost any other career.

[BigZuck]

Belle- you either need to go to a school in a state where you have preexisting ties (aka where you were born and raised, where you went to college, where your parents live, stuff like that) OR you need to go to a T14. That might be slightly oversimplifying things, but I think it's basically spot on. You can't think "Well, in from Mississippi but I have a second cousin twice removed who lives in Portland, so I'll just do Oregon." That plan has a huge possibility of backfiring on you and leaving you with nothing.

Now, it's obvious that you don't want to go to law school and work forever in Alabama or Georgia or wherever it is that you're from. So, you can do one of two things:

1. Retake and go to a T14.
Or
2. Move to whatever state you ultimately want to end up, work for at least a year (ideally a few), see if you actually like it and want to live there long term, and then apply to the flagship school (although dont attend unless its cheap, which may or may not necessitate a retake).

I know you just want to move to some random state and attend some random law school and just get on with it but this is your life we're talking about here, you have to think long term. The legal job market is terrible and from what I have seen, most legal employers (especially at small firms, which would be close to a best case scenario if you attend schools like these) are pretty parochial and largely want to hire their own, or at least people they think will be in it for the long haul.

[ManoftheHour]

OP, did you just choose random schools to apply to? New Mexico? Oregon? Florida? Doesn't make any sense...

[TheSpanishMain]

OP, did you just choose random schools to apply to? New Mexico? Oregon? Florida? Doesn't make any sense...

This.

OP, I'm not sure you're aware of how regional most law schools are, and how much many legal markets value ties to the region. You can't just show up in a random place with a degree from the local regional. Locals are going to have the best chance at jobs from these schools, leaving out-of-town randoms with a greater chance of being part of that unemployed/underemployed group. If you want to break into a market you have no ties to, you need to either A) go to a T14 or B) move to that area several years in advance of law school.

[jingosaur]

COL is lower than NY. There's a income equivalency chart I have bookmarked somewhere, but it stated/showed figures supporting that a Miami 90-120k job in terms of living standards is comparable to a 130-160K job in NY. I also have an offer from U of New Mexico with half scholarship, which is reduced to 1/4 for 2L & 3L — but the thought of staying in the Southwest/South is very unappealing and simply not something I want to do for the rest of my life

At one point, I lived in Manhattan on about $60k while paying down $60k of SUBSIDIZED undergrad loans and it got difficult at times to make ends meet (I luckily got a big raise shortly after moving to the city). I couldn't even imagine living in a city like Miami on 50k while paying down double that debt on double the interest. I'm sure IBR would kick in at that income level, but either way, you'll be living at the poverty level.


Serious question: are there any jobs that you're qualified to do right now that have large industries in major cities in areas where you're okay living? It would probably be easier to get out of dodge with some undergrad entry-level job than trying to do it through regional law schools. Most of the people who get jobs out of regional schools grew up or at least went to undergrad in the state that they went to law school in and used connections to get jobs. Most of the kids who end up shit-out-of-luck and desperately under/unemployed are outsiders like you will be.

[03152016]

with oregon you graduate debt-free
but only 47% of grads found a full-time, long-term, jd-required job nine months after graduation
and 29.1% were underemployed
and that was in a particularly good year, last year it was 37.9%/44.1%
in other words, more grads were underemployed than got ft/lt/jd work last year
if u go with this option, make sure u have a back-up plan in case the law thing doesn't work out
maybe get a cdl or some other certification, just in case
sadly, this may give you a better shot at gainful employment than an oregon jd

on the other hand miami has 'better' numbers, 60.5%/21.4%
but you'll never pay off the loans, not on the types of salaries miami grads make
so if you are fortunate enough to get a paying legal job out of miami
you can look forward to forking over a nice slice of your income to uncle sam for the next 20 years as u paye/ibr the debt down
the debt is non-dischargable btw
and ol uncle sam isn't thru with u yet, he has a special tax bomb for u on any forgiven debt
so then u get to owe money to the irs, who i hear are spectacular ppl to work w

pick ur poison
when both options r near-suicidal, idk how much difference it makes
mayyyb i'd pick oregon over miami
bc a quick blow to the head seems like less suffering than slowly bleeding out

[03152016]

btw too bad u "can't retake"
the vast majority of posters here get top schools with good financial aid
just for a few measly months of studying
they'll be taking those biglaw jobs you're talking about
too bad that you "can't retake" and are stuck picking between a cheap toilet and an expensive toilet

[SouthernBelle22]

OP, did you just choose random schools to apply to? New Mexico? Oregon? Florida? Doesn't make any sense...

This.

OP, I'm not sure you're aware of how regional most law schools are, and how much many legal markets value ties to the region. You can't just show up in a random place with a degree from the local regional. Locals are going to have the best chance at jobs from these schools, leaving out-of-town randoms with a greater chance of being part of that unemployed/underemployed group. If you want to break into a market you have no ties to, you need to either A) go to a T14 or B) move to that area several years in advance of law school.

I really appreciate your input fellas, all of you. To clarify: I didn't choose at random, because I actually picked law schools that I see myself living in for the long haul.

Your comment about out of towners does put things into perspective, but would small ties in FL (some family that aren't extremely far removed and several friends from childhood and undergrad) help me avoid falling into the unemployed/underemployed categories? Even though Miami is regional, it doesn't make sense that a private school with almost half of its students from Northeastern states + a fairly strong alumni network HAS TO be so dependent on preexisting ties.

btw too bad u "can't retake"
the vast majority of posters here get top schools with good financial aid
just for a few measly months of studying
they'll be taking those biglaw jobs you're talking about
too bad that you "can't retake" and are stuck picking between a cheap toilet and an expensive toilet

I used my 3rd administration in December

with oregon you graduate debt-free
but only 47% of grads found a full-time, long-term, jd-required job nine months after graduation
and 29.1% were underemployed
and that was in a particularly good year, last year it was 37.9%/44.1%
in other words, more grads were underemployed than got ft/lt/jd work last year
if u go with this option, make sure u have a back-up plan in case the law thing doesn't work out
maybe get a cdl or some other certification, just in case
sadly, this may give you a better shot at gainful employment than an oregon jd

on the other hand miami has 'better' numbers, 60.5%/21.4%
but you'll never pay off the loans, not on the types of salaries miami grads make
so if you are fortunate enough to get a paying legal job out of miami
you can look forward to forking over a nice slice of your income to uncle sam for the next 20 years as u paye/ibr the debt down
the debt is non-dischargable btw
and ol uncle sam isn't thru with u yet, he has a special tax bomb for u on any forgiven debt
so then u get to owe money to the irs, who i hear are spectacular ppl to work w

pick ur poison
when both options r near-suicidal, idk how much difference it makes
mayyyb i'd pick oregon over miami
bc a quick blow to the head seems like less suffering than slowly bleeding out

Regarding this, Miami's incoming class is going down from 300+ to around 200. Since LST's data is based on 2013's graduating class of 400+, couldn't we reasonably expect this to increase odds of securing 2017 employment? The combination of Southern Florida's legal market growth + Miami's decreasing class sizes makes this a logical inference.

**I know that securing a job with a yearly salary equal to one's debt is the rule-of-thumb, but all of this makes me wonder — what WOULD a manageable debt-level be for a Miami grad that ISN'T biglaw or midlaw?

[ManoftheHour]

If you must go, Oregon long term is the only way to go. Even then, you have a:

47% chance of actually becoming an attorney.
3.3% chance of getting big law.
29.1% chance of being underemployed/unemployed.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/oregon/2013/

[BigZuck]

Even if you had strong ties to Florida, Miami would only make sense if you had to pay about 60K to attend or so (so basically it's only worth it on a full ride). It doesn't make sense for you. It also doesn't have a strong alumni network, that's marketing flame. Or, if it does, that network doesn't help students get jobs.

[MrSebastian]

Regarding this, Miami's incoming class is going down from 300+ to around 200. Since LST's data is based on 2013's graduating class of 400+, couldn't we reasonably expect this to increase odds of securing 2017 employment? The combination of Southern Florida's legal market growth + Miami's decreasing class sizes makes this a logical inference.

Eh not really. Kids are still going to finish below medium or at bottom of the class and be screwed for jobs. And Florida's legal market is way too saturated as it is, there'd have to be some insane growth to make any difference. Don't bank on job numbers improving to make your decision, chances are they'll be similar to what they are now.

[McAvoy]

You need to either wait a few years and retake the LSAT or not go to law school.

[jingosaur]

Since you're probably going to go against our word and end up going to law school, at least go where you'll have no debt. The only thing worse than being unemployed/underemployed is having a massive amount of non-dischargeable debt that you won't be able to pay off without living below the poverty line. At least without debt, you have a much wider range of back-up plans if things go south.

[PepperJack]

50-65 pretax to pay off 140 is very hard in any market. 50-65k is also an amazing outcome out of Miami Law, easily top quarter of the class. But if you're paying off 20k a year it might be hard to have a car to get to work, and your own place. You're essentially putting yourself in great risk of failure with a realistic best case scenario of living like a busboy.

People assume that if this were the case then no one would go. There are two caveats. There are still enough rich idiot parents who will throw 200k to get their child a law degree, and there are people who think going to ANY law school is a sure fire way of making millions because some trashy girl once found their legal dreams attractive. Moreover, the majority struggling to make their rent payments don't have time to voice their experience. There is also shame to struggling. Just improve 10 points on the LSAT.

[transferror]

50-65 pretax to pay off 140 is very hard in any market. 50-65k is also an amazing outcome out of Miami Law, easily top quarter of the class. But if you're paying off 20k a year it might be hard to have a car to get to work, and your own place. You're essentially putting yourself in great risk of failure with a realistic best case scenario of living like a busboy.

People assume that if this were the case then no one would go. There are two caveats. There are still enough rich idiot parents who will throw 200k to get their child a law degree, and there are people who think going to ANY law school is a sure fire way of making millions because some trashy girl once found their legal dreams attractive. Moreover, the majority struggling to make their rent payments don't have time to voice their experience. There is also shame to struggling. Just improve 10 points on the LSAT.

Hey, she wasn't trashy.

[timbs4339]

OP: You have to understand how much of a monthly payment 140K of debt is. It's huge. I'm not sure exactly what lifestyle you think you'll be living in 4 years out of Miami, but with that debt on the expected starting salaries (the most recent stats we have show 22% confirmed making over 60K) it's going to look a lot like how you lived during UG and law school (in fact if you live in nice shiny new dorms/apartments you will probably have a worse place). You'll have to do that for a few years.

Another troubling thing is that you do not seem to have a great grasp on what kind of law you want to practice. Out of Miami it's probably going to be small firm law or being a local/state government lawyer or PD/legal aid lawyer- basically whatever you can get. If all you want to do is represent well-heeled businesspeople, that's not the place to be.

If you are desperate to go this year, then Oregon. It's at least somewhat recognizable by people in other states and you won't be debtpwned if you do poorly. Be warned, though, they could only confirm 5.7% in jobs paying more than 57K. Not very encouraging.

[SouthernBelle22]

OP: You have to understand how much of a monthly payment 140K of debt is. It's huge. I'm not sure exactly what lifestyle you think you'll be living in 4 years out of Miami, but with that debt on the expected starting salaries (the most recent stats we have show 22% confirmed making over 60K) it's going to look a lot like how you lived during UG and law school (in fact if you live in nice shiny new dorms/apartments you will probably have a worse place). You'll have to do that for a few years.

Another troubling thing is that you do not seem to have a great grasp on what kind of law you want to practice. Out of Miami it's probably going to be small firm law or being a local/state government lawyer or PD/legal aid lawyer- basically whatever you can get. If all you want to do is represent well-heeled businesspeople, that's not the place to be.

If you are desperate to go this year, then Oregon. It's at least somewhat recognizable by people in other states and you won't be debtpwned if you do poorly. Be warned, though, they could only confirm 5.7% in jobs paying more than 57K. Not very encouraging.

Whered ya find these stats in LST? Adding all the firms by respective size in the jobs or salary tab show almost 50% of those in private sector earning over 60k

[cron1834]

OP: You have to understand how much of a monthly payment 140K of debt is. It's huge. I'm not sure exactly what lifestyle you think you'll be living in 4 years out of Miami, but with that debt on the expected starting salaries (the most recent stats we have show 22% confirmed making over 60K) it's going to look a lot like how you lived during UG and law school (in fact if you live in nice shiny new dorms/apartments you will probably have a worse place). You'll have to do that for a few years.

Another troubling thing is that you do not seem to have a great grasp on what kind of law you want to practice. Out of Miami it's probably going to be small firm law or being a local/state government lawyer or PD/legal aid lawyer- basically whatever you can get. If all you want to do is represent well-heeled businesspeople, that's not the place to be.

If you are desperate to go this year, then Oregon. It's at least somewhat recognizable by people in other states and you won't be debtpwned if you do poorly. Be warned, though, they could only confirm 5.7% in jobs paying more than 57K. Not very encouraging.

Whered ya find these stats in LST? Adding all the firms by respective size in the jobs or salary tab show almost 50% of those in private sector earning over 60k

You are ignoring the facts that a) HALF of Oregon Law students don't become lawyers within 9 months b) a MINORITY of those that do become lawyers get into the private sector and c) those with good outcomes are more likely to report data, producing a biased sample. Oregon is worse than a coinflip for being a legit lawyer, and it's wayyyy worse than a coinflip for making a good salary.

[03152016]

151 people graduated from oregon last year
16 of them (no, not 16%, the number 16) reported a law firm salary
these r almost certainly the cream of the crop, the group with the best outcomes in their class, who weren't too embarrassed to mail the form back
in this highly elite group, the median salary was $64.5k

i'll reiterate what i said earlier
given your current situation, you need to start thinking about a back-up plan if the whole lawyer thing doesn't work out
get a commercial drivers license, or hvac certification, or forklift training, or attend a trade school
you have to have something to fall back on if you'll be attending these schools
it's fine to chase your dreams, but be responsible about it

don't be my friend who went to rutgers, graduated a couple years ago, and is still completely unemployed
or my friend who went to pace who had to fight tooth and nail for her $40k position, and barely got it
or my friend who went to maryland, graduated in 2013, did well academically, and still is not long-term/full-time
these are all 100% true, and although anecdotal, not even close to rare circumstances

[timbs4339]

OP: You have to understand how much of a monthly payment 140K of debt is. It's huge. I'm not sure exactly what lifestyle you think you'll be living in 4 years out of Miami, but with that debt on the expected starting salaries (the most recent stats we have show 22% confirmed making over 60K) it's going to look a lot like how you lived during UG and law school (in fact if you live in nice shiny new dorms/apartments you will probably have a worse place). You'll have to do that for a few years.

Another troubling thing is that you do not seem to have a great grasp on what kind of law you want to practice. Out of Miami it's probably going to be small firm law or being a local/state government lawyer or PD/legal aid lawyer- basically whatever you can get. If all you want to do is represent well-heeled businesspeople, that's not the place to be.

If you are desperate to go this year, then Oregon. It's at least somewhat recognizable by people in other states and you won't be debtpwned if you do poorly. Be warned, though, they could only confirm 5.7% in jobs paying more than 57K. Not very encouraging.

Whered ya find these stats in LST? Adding all the firms by respective size in the jobs or salary tab show almost 50% of those in private sector earning over 60k

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/miami/sals/2012/

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

If you put "neither--retake the LSAT" in your poll that will be the winner

[lawschoolyayyy]

This is silly. Oregon, and don't look back!!!

[cron1834]

Obviously the answer is "neither of these hellholes." In case further clarification was needed.