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GPA: 3.95; LSAT: 164

I was put on the preferred waitlist for Georgetown in December and just found out today I was admitted. After retaking the LSAT and going from 155 to 164, Villanova gave me a full scholarship.

I'd live at home if I go to Villanova, and I'd be living in an apartment if I went to Georgetown.

I'm from the Philadelphia area and would be happy to practice there after graduating from Villanova. However, I know Georgetown is known for their PI program.

So my question is, is the prestige and a higher chance at "big PI" or "big fed" worth all of the debt I'd incur to go to Georgetown? Or should I stick with Villanova?

Edit: Georgetown agreed to give me $20k/year in scholarship money.
Thanks!!

Please retake again and don't waste the high GPA. Georgetown for sticker? That's an amazingly high sum. I'd go Villanova for free with PI interests (literally free, right, with living at home and a full offer?) before Georgetown, though retake the LSAT again. What was your PT average?

OP retake and try to get UPENN?

With a 3.95 GPA, you should retake the LSAT for at least a 167, which is well within your reach.

Villanova is not worth attending when $$$ at a T14 is in play.

Doesn't Villanova have stipulations on their scholarships?

While I think retake is obviously the right answer here if you have a serious interest in prestigious PI (since a 173 + 3.95 would definitely put you in the running for serious money at CCN), I would take Villanova in this circumstance over GULC. If you were going to take GULC at sticker, then why not ED to UVA next cycle at the very least?

Otunga wrote:Please retake again and don't waste the high GPA. Georgetown for sticker? That's an amazingly high sum. I'd go Villanova for free with PI interests (literally free, right, with living at home and a full offer?) before Georgetown, though retake the LSAT again. What was your PT average?

When I was taking a course last summer my PT average was 154, and I ended up scoring a 155. I didn't take any practice tests before my most recent retake; I only did question type and section practice (timed and untimed).

twenty wrote:Doesn't Villanova have stipulations on their scholarships?

While I think retake is obviously the right answer here if you have a serious interest in prestigious PI (since a 173 + 3.95 would definitely put you in the running for serious money at CCN), I would take Villanova in this circumstance over GULC. If you were going to take GULC at sticker, then why not ED to UVA next cycle at the very least?

Nope, I only need to maintain a 2.0 GPA.

For the love of god retake

And if you refuse to do that (which would be idiotic) go to Villanova for free if you can live rent-free for 3 years. Georgetown at sticker is very expensive for someone who's going to make 40k to 50k per year out of law school.

Mk, well, since you're able to go to Villanova for probably a grand total of 10k when you factor in gas, books and summers, would probably do that then if you're not going to retake.

It's not a bad deal if you want low-prestige PI, but there are better deals available to you if you retook.

twenty wrote:Mk, well, since you're able to go to Villanova for probably a grand total of 10k when you factor in gas, books and summers, would probably do that then if you're not going to retake.

It's not a bad deal if you want low-prestige PI, but there are better deals available to you if you retook.

I agree. OP, PI's tough. You need as many advantages as you can attain.

Thanks for the help everyone! Georgetown e-mailed me yesterday and offered a $20,000/year merit scholarship. I will ask them about stips but since none were indicated I'll assume the stips are good standing.

So is Georgetown worth it at $33k/year? I have until tomorrow to decide.

ConLawNerd91 wrote:Thanks for the help everyone! Georgetown e-mailed me yesterday and offered a $20,000/year merit scholarship. I will ask them about stips but since none were indicated I'll assume the stips are good standing.

So is Georgetown worth it at $33k/year? I have until tomorrow to decide.

Doesn't the fact that they're this desperate tell you something? Retake the LSAT for better options than these.

Isn't Gtown a good school?

withoutapaddle wrote:Isn't Gtown a good school?

Not when your GPA is 3.95.

withoutapaddle wrote:Isn't Gtown a good school?

GPA acts sort of like a filter for law school admissions. Barring special snowflake status, you need a certain floor to get into high level schools. Moreso, higher GPAs make you likely to get massive scholarships with the right LSAT score.

Your GPA is above Yale's median. With a matching LSAT, you can go anywhere, and give yourself the best possible start to a legal career.

Setting yourself up well now will make the next 50 years of your life entirely different.

jingosaur wrote:

withoutapaddle wrote:Isn't Gtown a good school?

Not when your GPA is 3.95.

there is nothing that I wish I could do more than go back to undergrad and get a 3.95

don't waste it OP

^ Same

Having a Yale, Stanford, or Harvard law degree would be pretty awesome OP. I wish I had that GPA.

withoutapaddle wrote:Isn't Gtown a good school?

Not at sticker.

Even though OP wants to do PI, he has to realize that because of loan forgiveness, PI jobs are almost as competitive as Biglaw these days. Going to law school for sticker and banking on LRAP/loan forgiveness is a recipe for insanity.

I think going to Villanova for free, especially if you have no living expenses, is better than Georgetown. However, waiting a year and retaking the LSAT a third time is a far better idea.

JCougar wrote:PI jobs are almost as competitive as Biglaw these days.

It's also worth pointing out that they're competitive in an entirely different way, so much so that a GULC kid doesn't really have a huge advantage over a Villanova kid for PI hiring, while the GULC kid would have a huge advantage for biglaw hiring. At GULC, if you're in the top 25% of your class, you're predictably walking out with biglaw, but there's absolutely no way of predicting PI/govt hiring in the same way.

twenty wrote:

JCougar wrote:PI jobs are almost as competitive as Biglaw these days.

It's also worth pointing out that they're competitive in an entirely different way, so much so that a GULC kid doesn't really have a huge advantage over a Villanova kid for PI hiring, while the GULC kid would have a huge advantage for biglaw hiring. At GULC, if you're in the top 25% of your class, you're predictably walking out with biglaw, but there's absolutely no way of predicting PI/govt hiring in the same way.

Exactly.

I got turned down for a union job for a guy who went to a TTT with worse grades--because he worked for a different union a few years before law school.

With PI, having worked in PI previously (especially in the same area, or even more especially at the same organization) is often more important than grades/school rank.

That's why, personally, I'd feel a lot more comfortable taking Villanova for free rather than GeorgeTTTown at sTTTicker...or even with a $20,000 scholarship. Tuition has been jacked up so high at GeorgeTTTown that even $60,000 over three years leaves the cost unreasonably high--especially for PI.

twenty wrote:

JCougar wrote:PI jobs are almost as competitive as Biglaw these days.

It's also worth pointing out that they're competitive in an entirely different way, so much so that a GULC kid doesn't really have a huge advantage over a Villanova kid for PI hiring, while the GULC kid would have a huge advantage for biglaw hiring. At GULC, if you're in the top 25% of your class, you're predictably walking out with biglaw, but there's absolutely no way of predicting PI/govt hiring in the same way.

That makes sense. Since you seem to have some insight on PI/govt, do you think there is any chance of a Villanova grad being hired for one of the fed honors programs? Or are those jobs usually reserved for students in the T14?

ConLawNerd91 wrote: That makes sense. Since you seem to have some insight on PI/govt, do you think there is any chance of a Villanova grad being hired for one of the fed honors programs? Or are those jobs usually reserved for students in the T14?

That really depends on which program. Some of these are as competitive as Biglaw, if not moreso. But I have seen some people from TTTs get Presidential Management Fellow positions and such.

Department of Labor honors is nearly impossible to get without magna cum laude at ranks ~25-15, and something like top third from the T14.

ConLawNerd91 wrote:That makes sense. Since you seem to have some insight on PI/govt, do you think there is any chance of a Villanova grad being hired for one of the fed honors programs? Or are those jobs usually reserved for students in the T14?

Yes.
http://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools

That being said - DOJ Honors is very very difficult to get into.

ConLawNerd91 wrote:Thanks for the help everyone! Georgetown e-mailed me yesterday and offered a $20,000/year merit scholarship. I will ask them about stips but since none were indicated I'll assume the stips are good standing.

So is Georgetown worth it at $33k/year? I have until tomorrow to decide.

Who would pay for your COL in DC?

ConLawNerd91 wrote:

twenty wrote:

JCougar wrote:PI jobs are almost as competitive as Biglaw these days.

It's also worth pointing out that they're competitive in an entirely different way, so much so that a GULC kid doesn't really have a huge advantage over a Villanova kid for PI hiring, while the GULC kid would have a huge advantage for biglaw hiring. At GULC, if you're in the top 25% of your class, you're predictably walking out with biglaw, but there's absolutely no way of predicting PI/govt hiring in the same way.

That makes sense. Since you seem to have some insight on PI/govt, do you think there is any chance of a Villanova grad being hired for one of the fed honors programs? Or are those jobs usually reserved for students in the T14?

Like JCouger said, it depends on the program. For DOJ, SEC, State, etc. you better have great grades + law review at HYSCCN and some pretty solid resume stuff for more than an arbitrary shot at these agencies. For HUD, DOT, IRS, etc. you better be seriously dedicated throughout law school and gunning for that specific agency the whole time. Cross your fingers and hope they don't have a hiring freeze by the time 3L comes around.

The thing is, you're not gunning for 20~ slots (depending on the agency) you're gunning for one of, like, 5. The remainder of the slots will go to guys like TheSpanishMain, who will get veteran's preference and will blow your application out of the water before anyone even looks at it, or myself, who has tenure with the federal government, and will blow your application out of the water before anyone looks at it. Granted, there aren't a lot of status candidates or veterans, but understand that it's a rough, rough road to get into PI/govt. So much so that from Day 1 of law school, you better be gunning like nobody's business.

Example: (T14) buddy wanted JAG Corps, so during his first semester of 1L, he was volunteering for a non-profit that helped veterans with USERRA claims. 1L summer he went to Army. He threw stuff into OCI, but he spent most of his 2L time volunteering at a local base. 2L summer was split between AF and Army. 3L he basically skipped all his classes to go volunteer/extern for the military. When all was said and done, Army saw his resume and a recruiter told him "Wow, this is impressive... I'd give you a 50/50 chance of getting in [to active], man." The moral of the story is, for all his gunning he did, he should have done more.

But I digress. Retake the LSAT and go to a T14 school for a huge discount/free.