Catholic University vs UDC Forum

[Senior 1811]

So, let's start here. I'm a 47 year old GS-15 (1811/Supervisory Special Agent) with 26 years of law enforcement experience at the local, state and federal levels. I graduated from a Big Ten University with a 2.2 Undergrad GPA in Criminal Justice, 3.7 GPA with a Masters in International Affairs and a 155 LSAT.

I've been in management with my agency for the past 14 years, excelling in investigations of great complexity with national and international impact. My question is simple, at this point in my life, does it matter if I graduate from Catholic University (CUA) or the University of the District of Columbia (UDC) with a JD? I don't intend to practice as I have a great career as an agent making what I would have hoped to make as a practicing lawyer. Going to law school is to satisfy my thirst for knowledge and my desire to obtain a JD. At the end of the day, I would like to teach at the undergrad/graduate level as I serve as an adjunct assistant professor at a grad school here in Washington, DC.

So, I am hesitant about CUA because of the cost of the part time tuition of $130K and could take me as long as 10 years paying off loans at $1,500 a month. Conversely, UDC's tuition is $50K for their part time program and is advertised for its diversity particularly the number of students over 35 (40% of the student body). Also, U.S. News and World Report ranks UDC as the seventh best clinical programs of all law schools in the country. This is surprisingly considering UDC is ranked 173rd of all ABA approved law schools. CUA has a better reputation and is ranked 83rd. So does anyone have an opinion for a a conflicted senior 1811 of which school would be best? All well thought provoking comments welcomed.

[jk148706]

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[Winston1984]

You should not go to law school.

[mt2165]

Yeah man you're making 6 figures doing something you love law school isn't worth it. It sounds like what you really want is to be a student again and there's gotta be a cheaper if not more useful avenue to do that. Good luck tho!

[Mullens]

You should not go to either. It's too expensive for no tangible benefit. Both of those schools are complete garbage and less than half of their graduates get full-time lawyer jobs (and a dismal 23.8% for UDC).

Go here: http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... c/gw/gulc/

Specialty rankings are completely meaningless and useless. They only exist so crappy law schools like UDC have something to use in their marketing materials to distract applicants from their dismal overall ranking and horrendous job numbers.

If you just have to make the irrational decision to go to law school, retake the LSAT and see if you can get into the part-time programs at GW or Georgetown. At least then you will be paying to attend a school that isn't a total scam that enriches its employees on the back of federal student loans that will never be paid back because the graduates can't even find low-paying legal work.

[rickgrimes69]

Just buy a bunch of E&Es and read them for funsies

don't go to law school

[timbs4339]

There was someone here a few weeks ago with a similar dilemma, so this thread is like deja vu. Forgive me if I'm less patient with you than that guy.

I'm not going to try dissuade you from going, tell you it's not some great intellectual exercise like in the movies, etc. etc., because you probably have a conception of LAW SCHOOL that is pretty set in stone by this point in your life. I will tell you that in comparing these schools (or most schools) there is essentially no substantive programmatic or experience difference that would justify spending even close to 80K extra to attend Catholic. It's all marketing. UDC will teach you all the same cases, give you the same JD that will allow you to take the very same bar exams, and not cost you an arm or a leg (honestly you should not even be taking out any loans). Any job you hope to get teaching you'll get on the strength of your work experience, not on the prestige of either a Catholic degree or a UDC degree (they don't have any prestige, if you're wondering).

Honestly, I'm not even sure why this is a question. What is your primary reason for considering Catholic over UDC?

[jingosaur]

Going to either of these law school will not do anything for you in terms of career advancement or personal fulfillment. If I were you, I'd use the money and time you plan on using for law school to start a non-profit or something and do some real good. Paying to go to either of these schools perpetuates a scam that needs to end and even though you don't want to practice law, degrees from these law schools do much less outside of the legal world than they do inside of it, if you can imagine that.

I've actually heard of JDs getting denied teaching jobs because they had to get a higher starting salary according to union pay scales (and no they can't say "just pay me less") and the school couldn't afford paying them more so they hired a less qualified person with only a Bachelor's degree instead.

[eriedoctrine]

I call bored troll.

[daleearnhardt123]

I'd go a step further (given that a lot of people are only indirectly answering your question) and say you shouldn't go to these schools because they might HURT your resume.

For whatever reason, you dont seem to care about the debt. Ok. That's odd, but whatever, you know your financial situation better than any of us. But a degree from one of these schools at this stage of your life (or any stage of your life) will signal nothing but bad things to prospective employers.

If you DON'T want to work in law (and, of course, this begs the question of why flush this money) then a law degree from these schools--a law degree from MANY schools in fact--will be frowned upon by employers. You may be hired for your experience, but they may view you as a flight risk. Little do non-legal employers know that you couldnt flee to a legal job because these degrees are worthless. Even if they don't view you as a flight risk, they might view you as a failure. "So...this guy went in on a law degree this late in his life and...he's not trying to get a legal job?"

If you DO want to work in the law, well then the other posters have taken care of that for you. These schools are sewers. You will not procure any job that holds a candle to the one you currently have. Your likely options are shitlaw at <40k a year or Doc Review and thats IF you're even lucky enough to get a job AT ALL. As far as legal employment outcomes go, these schools are unjustifiable even for free.

That about sums it up. But, I think to get some better advice on what you should try and do as far as law school goes, you need to give the people on this messageboard a better idea of WHY you want a law degree and what you aspire to do with it.

[timbs4339]

OP: Might be helpful if you clarify whether you intend to leave your current career as an agent after getting the JD.

[03152016]

the dude who wanted to go to golden gate or w/e was a trust fund kid
this is much scarier, op is talking about debt-financing

everything about this screams troll to me honestly
going to "top-law-schools" for advice about two of the worst law schools in the country
with bad reasons to go, both professionally and financially

but if it is real
i do not understand how this could be a sound plan from a financial perspective
you could learn about the law through online lectures for free if that's your aim
if you're planning on paying off $1.5k for ten years, that's $180,000 less in your portfolio as you're nearing retirement
and the fact that you're fully debt financing indicates you're not flush
so in your case, if you really really wanted to go to ls,
the only reasonable course of action would be to retake the LSAT and try to get as much merit aid as possible next cycle

[jk148706]

the dude who wanted to go to golden gate or w/e was a trust fund kid
this is much scarier, op is talking about debt-financing

everything about this screams troll to me honestly
going to "top-law-schools" for advice about two of the worst law schools in the country
with bad reasons to go, both professionally and financially

but if it is real
i do not understand how this could be a sound plan from a financial perspective
you could learn about the law through online lectures for free if that's your aim
if you're planning on paying off $1.5k for ten years, that's $180,000 less in your portfolio as you're nearing retirement
and the fact that you're fully debt financing indicates you're not flush
so in your case, if you really really wanted to go to ls,
the only reasonable course of action would be to retake the LSAT and try to get as much merit aid as possible next cycle

Is this written in verse?

[Nova]

Is this written in verse?

idk but i like it

[ilikebaseball]

Don't go. I don't really know why you would. I'm sure you're around a public law library, being in DC, so why would you not simply "satisfy your thirst for knowledge" by going in and picking up a book?

[Senior 1811]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I held quite a bit back. I'm eligible to retire in three years but mandatory in ten but will get a pension (yeah I get one of those old things and a 403B) about 60-70% of my current salary. No, I wouldn't leave my job to attend and I would attend part time. My financial status is good, GI-Bill (former infantry officer) plus loan repayment by U.S. Govt. employee plan for higher education. I also come from a family of lawyers and always wanted to go to law school but, work and life intervened. My skill set in my agency has lead me to be "loaned" to cabinet offices and other agencies as an advisor in a very singular area of expertise related to my experiences and graduate work. The intent is for my JD to compliment that expertise and lead to a retirement career as a consultant at the higher levels of government and business. Everything that has been mentioned has been in my thoughts on the subject but, I wanted unfiltered opinions on the matter versus the propaganda I've seen on other message boards and the bias from my family members. If there are other comments based on this additional info please feel free to share. In the meantime, thanks much.

[timbs4339]

My skill set in my agency has lead me to be "loaned" to cabinet offices and other agencies as an advisor in a very singular area of expertise related to my experiences and graduate work. The intent is for my JD to compliment that expertise and lead to a retirement career as a consultant at the higher levels of government and business. Everything that has been mentioned has been in my thoughts on the subject but, I wanted unfiltered opinions on the matter versus the propaganda I've seen on other message boards and the bias from my family members. If there are other comments based on this additional info please feel free to share. In the meantime, thanks much.

I honestly can't think of anything in the JD program is going to complement the unique expertise you've picked up over the years and that would lead to career opportunities you wouldn't already have. In other words, I can't see an employer ever saying "you know, even with his decades of specialized work experience and former military service we wouldn't have hired this guy, but now that he has a Catholic JD we're surely going to bring him on."

As for other skills, you'd get more effective writing training in a creative writing program, and better logic training taking some UG philosophy classes. The main purpose of the JD is to allow you to take the bar (which you don't seem to want to do) and, at the elite law schools, to signal that you were smart enough to get into that school. Whether it imparts any useful skills/knowledge is up for debate (IMO, the vaunted "thinking like a lawyer" is just industry marketing).

But I understand if you'd always had this as a regret in your life and want to do it even if it has a marginal career benefit. In that case, go to UDC on the cheap.

[FSK]

1) You learn shit in law school. Its a vehcile to get into Big Firms, and to get licensed for other types of work. Most things you learn on the job.
2) Most consultant/service jobs, especially in DC, are very prestige conscious. I'm sure you've seen this.

I'm a 22 year old no-nothing shit, but I just don't see a JD actually adding any value to what you already have. You seem to have done really well for yourself already.

[rad lulz]

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[Ti Malice]

My skill set in my agency has lead me to be "loaned" to cabinet offices and other agencies as an advisor in a very singular area of expertise related to my experiences and graduate work. The intent is for my JD to compliment that expertise and lead to a retirement career as a consultant at the higher levels of government and business. Everything that has been mentioned has been in my thoughts on the subject but, I wanted unfiltered opinions on the matter versus the propaganda I've seen on other message boards and the bias from my family members. If there are other comments based on this additional info please feel free to share. In the meantime, thanks much.

I honestly can't think of anything in the JD program is going to complement the unique expertise you've picked up over the years and that would lead to career opportunities you wouldn't already have. In other words, I can't see an employer ever saying "you know, even with his decades of specialized work experience and former military service we wouldn't have hired this guy, but now that he has a Catholic JD we're surely going to bring him on."

As for other skills, you'd get more effective writing training in a creative writing program, and better logic training taking some UG philosophy classes. The main purpose of the JD is to allow you to take the bar (which you don't seem to want to do) and, at the elite law schools, to signal that you were smart enough to get into that school. Whether it imparts any useful skills/knowledge is up for debate (IMO, the vaunted "thinking like a lawyer" is just industry marketing).

But I understand if you'd always had this as a regret in your life and want to do it even if it has a marginal career benefit. In that case, go to UDC on the cheap.

I second all of this emphatically.

And let go of your idyllic conception of the law school classroom experience. If you're thirsting for knowledge, law school is one of the very last places on a university campus that you should have anything to do with. Go do some useless but interesting MA program if you have money to burn and want to feed your intellectual curiosity.