. Forum

beachbum · Post by **beachbum** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:10 pm

tskela wrote:I live 10 minutes from Durham. Love the city but summers here are 95°F and 85% humidity. I'd take long Michigan winters any day.

A law student will probably be gone for the good majority of each summer, though.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:35 pm

Post removed.

HP5450 · Post by **HP5450** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:18 am

cron1834 wrote:Mich is definitely the right choice for me, OP, but it seems like Duke makes more sense for you. You don't like large University bureaucracies, and Mich is huge. You don't like the cold, and AA is cold. You're from the east coast/want the east coast, and AA is Midwest.

You seem to be of the impression that at Duke you'll be obligated to attend lacrosse team rape parties, and at Mich you'll be smoking weed at Dean Z's house discussing gay marriage. I'm MOSTLY sure neither of these will happen...

The last part has a shot at happening, probably without the weed. The only reasons people think of Duke as being more prestigious is because of the spillover effect from the undergraduate program's reputation and because it's private. Michigan's law school has generally ranked higher in both USNWR and Vault.

muskies970 · Post by **muskies970** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:15 am

jbagelboy wrote:
Sounds like you went to NYU undergrad. I've heard the stories. Either way, please do yourself the favor of dropping the impression that you are 'more than just a number' to Michigan adcoms: you are precisely a number, and they work hard to convince you to help them maintain those numbers (whether it be yield data or gpa/lsat medians). Regardless, it sounds like you really just don't like Duke and couldn't see yourself going there and that your mind is already made up. this isn't uncommon: we constantly rationalize our choices and apply these broad aspersions when it's more of a gut thing. I can try to impress upon you that your fears about Duke are misguided, but I'm not sure that will make any difference.

They are peer institutions. Sounds like you want Michigan; go for it and don't look back.

Obviously this guy knows nothing about Dean Z or Michigan, I would treat him and his advice with healthy skepticism.

MrSebastian · Post by **MrSebastian** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:31 pm

Muskies is a special snowflake

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:47 pm

muskies970 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
Sounds like you went to NYU undergrad. I've heard the stories. Either way, please do yourself the favor of dropping the impression that you are 'more than just a number' to Michigan adcoms: you are precisely a number, and they work hard to convince you to help them maintain those numbers (whether it be yield data or gpa/lsat medians). Regardless, it sounds like you really just don't like Duke and couldn't see yourself going there and that your mind is already made up. this isn't uncommon: we constantly rationalize our choices and apply these broad aspersions when it's more of a gut thing. I can try to impress upon you that your fears about Duke are misguided, but I'm not sure that will make any difference.

They are peer institutions. Sounds like you want Michigan; go for it and don't look back.
Obviously this guy knows nothing about Dean Z or Michigan, I would treat him and his advice with healthy skepticism.

Actually I've spoken to dean z on several occasions and considered michigan back when I applied to law schools and it's you who is partial and whose opinion must be treated with skepticism. I'm not saying Michigan is worse than other schools about this, but you're just drinking the kool-aid if you think their bottom line is any different. In fact, Michigan is the only program I know of (NYU comes close) that calculates its scholarships strictly off GPA/LSAT to provide the highest return on student investment for their medians. The dean of financial aid admitted so much to me, and told me how much aid (given an independent static gpa) a particular LSAT score would net you along a distribution (169 sticker, 170 $15K, 172 $22.5K, 174 $27.5K, ect).

More to the point, the quality of the salesmen doesn't tell you much about the quality of the product. How friendly the adcoms are can be 'a' factor in your subjective liking of a school, but not a significant one, especially considering those people aren't involved in your life after you sign on the line which is dotted (and sign your MPN to write them a fat loan check).

Serett · Post by **Serett** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:56 pm

Either visit or flip a coin.

Arboreal · Post by **Arboreal** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:04 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
Sounds like you went to NYU undergrad. I've heard the stories. Either way, please do yourself the favor of dropping the impression that you are 'more than just a number' to Michigan adcoms: you are precisely a number, and they work hard to convince you to help them maintain those numbers (whether it be yield data or gpa/lsat medians). Regardless, it sounds like you really just don't like Duke and couldn't see yourself going there and that your mind is already made up. this isn't uncommon: we constantly rationalize our choices and apply these broad aspersions when it's more of a gut thing. I can try to impress upon you that your fears about Duke are misguided, but I'm not sure that will make any difference.

They are peer institutions. Sounds like you want Michigan; go for it and don't look back.
Obviously this guy knows nothing about Dean Z or Michigan, I would treat him and his advice with healthy skepticism.
Actually I've spoken to dean z on several occasions and considered michigan back when I applied to law schools and it's you who is partial and whose opinion must be treated with skepticism. I'm not saying Michigan is worse than other schools about this, but you're just drinking the kool-aid if you think their bottom line is any different. In fact, Michigan is the only program I know of (NYU comes close) that calculates its scholarships strictly off GPA/LSAT to provide the highest return on student investment for their medians. The dean of financial aid admitted so much to me, and told me how much aid (given an independent static gpa) a particular LSAT score would net you along a distribution (169 sticker, 170 $15K, 172 $22.5K, 174 $27.5K, ect).

More to the point, the quality of the salesmen doesn't tell you much about the quality of the product. How friendly the adcoms are can be 'a' factor in your subjective liking of a school, but not a significant one, especially considering those people aren't involved in your life after you sign on the line which is dotted (and sign your MPN to write them a fat loan check).

Why can't NYU get some love from Sir Bagels?!

ymmv · Post by **ymmv** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:44 pm

Arboreal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
Sounds like you went to NYU undergrad. I've heard the stories. Either way, please do yourself the favor of dropping the impression that you are 'more than just a number' to Michigan adcoms: you are precisely a number, and they work hard to convince you to help them maintain those numbers (whether it be yield data or gpa/lsat medians). Regardless, it sounds like you really just don't like Duke and couldn't see yourself going there and that your mind is already made up. this isn't uncommon: we constantly rationalize our choices and apply these broad aspersions when it's more of a gut thing. I can try to impress upon you that your fears about Duke are misguided, but I'm not sure that will make any difference.

They are peer institutions. Sounds like you want Michigan; go for it and don't look back.
Obviously this guy knows nothing about Dean Z or Michigan, I would treat him and his advice with healthy skepticism.
Actually I've spoken to dean z on several occasions and considered michigan back when I applied to law schools and it's you who is partial and whose opinion must be treated with skepticism. I'm not saying Michigan is worse than other schools about this, but you're just drinking the kool-aid if you think their bottom line is any different. In fact, Michigan is the only program I know of (NYU comes close) that calculates its scholarships strictly off GPA/LSAT to provide the highest return on student investment for their medians. The dean of financial aid admitted so much to me, and told me how much aid (given an independent static gpa) a particular LSAT score would net you along a distribution (169 sticker, 170 $15K, 172 $22.5K, 174 $27.5K, ect).

More to the point, the quality of the salesmen doesn't tell you much about the quality of the product. How friendly the adcoms are can be 'a' factor in your subjective liking of a school, but not a significant one, especially considering those people aren't involved in your life after you sign on the line which is dotted (and sign your MPN to write them a fat loan check).
Why can't NYU get some love from Sir Bagels?!

My guess is 50% all-in-good-fun trolling, 50% actual-data-suggests-NYU-is-overrated.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=230636

B/c if we're being honest NYU does not belong in the same breath as Columbia, let alone the same rank tier. Anyway, I'm getting pretty off-topic.

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:56 pm

Context is all, gents. This isn't about NYU's placement, it's about how they allot grant money to candidates. All non-HYS consider how they can buy you off for numbers. Some schools are more idiosyncratic than others; NYU falls more on the side of a rubric, although there's still more variation than Michigan (see above)

kimkardashian · Post by **kimkardashian** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:41 pm

cron1834 · Post by **cron1834** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:29 pm

At equal cost, in your situation, you gotta go Duke. I think very highly of Mich, obvs, but it doesn't sound sensible for you.

ETA - you're "way below" median at Duke and they gave you $45k? What is going on? Mich is 168 median - are you below that, too? Maybe these schools are actually worried about their 25s ...

Druid · Post by **Druid** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:44 pm

I mean I was an ED with a 169 and a GPA below their 25th %ile and I still got a small scholarship, so homeboy is wrong, even if he was told that.

Here's the thing. I'm a 3L at Michigan. I think you're going to join us in the end. I think if you go to Duke you'll end up wondering what could have been any time you are even remotely unhappy. But I'll also tell you that Ann Arbor is not NYC and doesn't have even remotely the same feel, it is really sports-obsessed on game day, and I have a whole host of issues with the school. I cannot tell you that Duke is any better because I never even applied when I was there. What I can tell you is that if I were in your situation I would go to Duke.

cron1834 · Post by **cron1834** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:46 pm

Druid wrote:I mean I was an ED with a 169 and a GPA below their 25th %ile and I still got a small scholarship, so homeboy is wrong, even if he was told that.

Here's the thing. I'm a 3L at Michigan. I think you're going to join us in the end. I think if you go to Duke you'll end up wondering what could have been any time you are even remotely unhappy. But I'll also tell you that Ann Arbor is not NYC and doesn't have even remotely the same feel, it is really sports-obsessed on game day, and I have a whole host of issues with the school. I cannot tell you that Duke is any better because I never even applied when I was there. What I can tell you is that if I were in your situation I would go to Duke.

A Mich 0L and a Mich 3L both voting Duke

Yet, it probably won't break that way.

Druid · Post by **Druid** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:54 pm

cron1834 wrote:
Druid wrote:I mean I was an ED with a 169 and a GPA below their 25th %ile and I still got a small scholarship, so homeboy is wrong, even if he was told that.

Here's the thing. I'm a 3L at Michigan. I think you're going to join us in the end. I think if you go to Duke you'll end up wondering what could have been any time you are even remotely unhappy. But I'll also tell you that Ann Arbor is not NYC and doesn't have even remotely the same feel, it is really sports-obsessed on game day, and I have a whole host of issues with the school. I cannot tell you that Duke is any better because I never even applied when I was there. What I can tell you is that if I were in your situation I would go to Duke.
A Mich 0L and a Mich 3L both voting Duke Yet, it probably won't break that way.

That my was read, too. Maybe you'll end up being sectionmates.

cron1834 · Post by **cron1834** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:57 pm

Kardashian, we can swap outlines.

kimkardashian · Post by **kimkardashian** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:49 pm

kimkardashian · Post by **kimkardashian** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:52 pm

cron1834 · Post by **cron1834** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:04 am

kimkardashian wrote:
cron1834 wrote:At equal cost, in your situation, you gotta go Duke. I think very highly of Mich, obvs, but it doesn't sound sensible for you.

ETA - you're "way below" median at Duke and they gave you $45k? What is going on? Mich is 168 median - are you below that, too? Maybe these schools are actually worried about their 25s ...
Why is Duke more sensible? I got a 164 btw. I don't know why I was accepted to either school haha but I'm thrilled about it of course.

Duke has slightly better employment numbers, it's closer to where you want to be, it's a smaller school, and it's not cold. I really don't think they're going to be reenacting the War of Northern Aggression. What exactly do you think happens at major graduate institutions? There are plenty of Yankees who go to Duke. I know some of them. You're targeting NYC anyway.

Also - I'm not ragging on your LSAT, so please don't interpret it that way. It's a little strange that someone way below median would be offered a scholly, that's all. Are you URM?

Druid · Post by **Druid** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:07 am

kimkardashian wrote:
Druid wrote:I mean I was an ED with a 169 and a GPA below their 25th %ile and I still got a small scholarship, so homeboy is wrong, even if he was told that.

Here's the thing. I'm a 3L at Michigan. I think you're going to join us in the end. I think if you go to Duke you'll end up wondering what could have been any time you are even remotely unhappy. But I'll also tell you that Ann Arbor is not NYC and doesn't have even remotely the same feel, it is really sports-obsessed on game day, and I have a whole host of issues with the school. I cannot tell you that Duke is any better because I never even applied when I was there. What I can tell you is that if I were in your situation I would go to Duke.
Why would you go to Duke in my situation? And what issues do you have with Michigan? I'm very split but I'm leaning towards Michigan because I feel uncertain about Duke's southern culture. Wouldn't Duke have the same sports obsession?

My point is that Duke does have the same sports obsession. I'm saying that the culture at either school is nothing like the East Coast. The schools are equal, except at Duke you have better weather.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:15 am

Post removed.

MrSebastian · Post by **MrSebastian** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:21 am

Durham is not the Deep South lol. It's part of the Triangle Region which is a big research area that's had an influx of California/Silicon Valley people. Oh, and Clay Aiken is running for Congress there and has a good shot at winning. So that should sum up the local politics for ya.

And yes, Michigan has a huge sports culture. You'll see everyone wearing yellow on game day and ridiculous tailgates everywhere. That was always a big draw for me as an undergrad but I can see how grad students may not like that aspect.

beachbum · Post by **beachbum** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:39 am

I haven't read through the last page and a half or so, but is "sportiness" the issue this choice is turning on? Because it sounds like you're going to be disappointed either way. (I don't have any firsthand knowledge of Michigan, but I can confirm that Duke - and the entire triangle area - is basketball-obsessed.) Of course, on the other hand, a university (and a law school) is a diverse place; if you don't want to follow the local sports teams, great. Don't. You'll find plenty of people who are right there with you.

As to your other point of contention, Duke is not a southern school. It's physically located in North Carolina, but, culturally, it's much more at home in the northeast or, even, the west (as I assume is probably true of most T14s). Or, in other words, you will find surprisingly few people strolling around campus in their overalls, mouths full of dip.

Culturally, I'd imagine it's pretty similar to other T14s. They all draw from the same pool of applicants. And that pool is not known for its frattiness, if that's your concern.

Durham is probably a lot nicer than you've been told. I was surprised when I got here. But it's a far, far cry from New York.

With all of that said, though, go to Michigan. These two schools are completely (completely) interchangeable in terms of employment prospects. Both will do well in NY, and neither is going to open a new market on its own (whether that market is the midwest or the south). The cost is essentially the same. And it sounds like your gut is telling you Michigan. I'm a big proponent of going with your gut, because, as someone else mentioned, if you go with Duke (your sweet silver medal), you'll always be wondering "what if." And you'll be kicking yourself whenever you discover something you don't like at Duke. Don't do that to yourself. Law school is stressful enough; you might as well go to the school that'll make you happy (/least miserable).

(Full disclosure: recent Duke grad.)

NYSprague · Post by **NYSprague** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:43 am

I'm still pushing for Duke. I feel that Michigan has slipped in placement and hasn't rebounded.
I still can't believe you would try to decide without going. You aren't going to just move to a school sight unseen. That would be foolish in case you are miserable.

I don't know what else to say.

Not everyone is enamored or persuaded by Dean Z s personality.

beachbum · Post by **beachbum** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:49 am

I spoke with our dean once. He seems like a nice guy.

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