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coreaves23 wrote:Alright, guys... my waitlist ride just keeps getting crazier..

Was about to mail in my deposit to Penn two days ago when I got a phone call from Michigan, offering me a spot off of the waitlist.

At this point, NDLS and UCLA are out of the running -- Michigan and Penn remain.

I have a $10,000/year scholarship at each school -- just have to be in good academic standing.

I am thinking that maybe I just need to take a visit to each and see which is the best "fit" for me, but would love to hear everyone's thoughts.

coreaves23 wrote: I've read other older threads and it seems like people were inclined to say "M-V-P" -- has that changed?

redsoxfan1989 wrote:

coreaves23 wrote: I've read other older threads and it seems like people were inclined to say "M-V-P" -- has that changed?

Michigan has softer employment statistics than UVa or Penn, but if you want Chicago/Detroit/other midwest, I would pick Michigan over Penn.

CFC1524 wrote:GPA / LSAT? Just curious, no need to answer if you don't want to.

1. Penn is better for Biglaw
2. You're (probably?) taking a decent chunk of debt
3. Biglaw is basically the best way to pay off debt
4. Go to Penn.

Any full rides from strong regionals? One of those might be a better option here

redsoxfan1989 wrote:

coreaves23 wrote: I've read other older threads and it seems like people were inclined to say "M-V-P" -- has that changed?

Michigan has softer employment statistics than UVa or Penn, but if you want Chicago/Detroit/other midwest, I would pick Michigan over Penn go to NU with money.

BigZuck wrote:Don't you have a 4.0? Retake.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=230855

Also, you're chasing a unicorn. You want to be a sports agent in the Midwest and you think 200K debt at Penn might be the way to get you there? I would plan this out a bit more carefully before going into so much debt for something that is so unlikely.

I would take a year off and retake if the June retake isn't a big jump.

coreaves23 wrote:

redsoxfan1989 wrote:

coreaves23 wrote: I've read other older threads and it seems like people were inclined to say "M-V-P" -- has that changed?

Michigan has softer employment statistics than UVa or Penn, but if you want Chicago/Detroit/other midwest, I would pick Michigan over Penn.

I saw that as well and wondered if it was self-selection or just that Penn places better in the bigger markets.

CFC1524 wrote:GPA / LSAT? Just curious, no need to answer if you don't want to.

1. Penn is better for Biglaw
2. You're (probably?) taking a decent chunk of debt
3. Biglaw is basically the best way to pay off debt
4. Go to Penn.

Any full rides from strong regionals? One of those might be a better option here

PM me for stats. I get that Penn is better for BigLaw, but if I don't want NYC BigLaw, is it really that much better of an option? I am having trouble wrapping my head around turning down an Ivy, but think that Michigan is also first-class.

coreaves23 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Don't you have a 4.0? Retake.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=230855

Also, you're chasing a unicorn. You want to be a sports agent in the Midwest and you think 200K debt at Penn might be the way to get you there? I would plan this out a bit more carefully before going into so much debt for something that is so unlikely.

I would take a year off and retake if the June retake isn't a big jump.

Yes, I do. That's why I stated that I would go BigLaw at first and then try to transition into the field. I am realistic about the difficulty of breaking into sports law. Won't have 200K debt at either (savings and wife's income -- I think it will be around 180K at each) and I'm not going to retake. Hopefully if June LSAT went well I will receive an increase from either school. Problem is I have to make my choice now.

EDIT: And yes -- sorry for neglecting this question earlier -- had a full-ride at IU-Bloomington, but turned it down. Didn't feel like a good fit to me.

ymmv wrote:

coreaves23 wrote:

redsoxfan1989 wrote:

coreaves23 wrote: I've read other older threads and it seems like people were inclined to say "M-V-P" -- has that changed?

Michigan has softer employment statistics than UVa or Penn, but if you want Chicago/Detroit/other midwest, I would pick Michigan over Penn.

I saw that as well and wondered if it was self-selection or just that Penn places better in the bigger markets.

CFC1524 wrote:GPA / LSAT? Just curious, no need to answer if you don't want to.

1. Penn is better for Biglaw
2. You're (probably?) taking a decent chunk of debt
3. Biglaw is basically the best way to pay off debt
4. Go to Penn.

Any full rides from strong regionals? One of those might be a better option here

PM me for stats. I get that Penn is better for BigLaw, but if I don't want NYC BigLaw, is it really that much better of an option? I am having trouble wrapping my head around turning down an Ivy, but think that Michigan is also first-class.

Ivy? First-class? Sports law?
To be brutally frank, you have not researched law school and the legal market well enough to justify spending $180,000 on what is essentially an uninformed decision.

Sports law does not exist. It's barely a rational goal for HYS and it's certainly not viable from MVP. If you choose to take out six figures in debt to attend law school, you need to do it based on the school that gives you the best chance of paying off your debt - almost certainly via biglaw - before you think about chasing unicorns through strawberry fields.

In any case, looking at overall employment statistics will reveal that Michigan has not been in the same league as Penn for some years now. But if you are deadset on the midwest and don't want NYC, then pick Michigan.

Better yet, retake and go full ride regional. ED NU for the off chance of a full ride there.

coreaves23 wrote:

ymmv wrote:

coreaves23 wrote:

redsoxfan1989 wrote:
Michigan has softer employment statistics than UVa or Penn, but if you want Chicago/Detroit/other midwest, I would pick Michigan over Penn.

I saw that as well and wondered if it was self-selection or just that Penn places better in the bigger markets.

CFC1524 wrote:GPA / LSAT? Just curious, no need to answer if you don't want to.

1. Penn is better for Biglaw
2. You're (probably?) taking a decent chunk of debt
3. Biglaw is basically the best way to pay off debt
4. Go to Penn.

Any full rides from strong regionals? One of those might be a better option here

PM me for stats. I get that Penn is better for BigLaw, but if I don't want NYC BigLaw, is it really that much better of an option? I am having trouble wrapping my head around turning down an Ivy, but think that Michigan is also first-class.

Ivy? First-class? Sports law?
To be brutally frank, you have not researched law school and the legal market well enough to justify spending $180,000 on what is essentially an uninformed decision.

Sports law does not exist. It's barely a rational goal for HYS and it's certainly not viable from MVP. If you choose to take out six figures in debt to attend law school, you need to do it based on the school that gives you the best chance of paying off your debt - almost certainly via biglaw - before you think about chasing unicorns through strawberry fields.

In any case, looking at overall employment statistics will reveal that Michigan has not been in the same league as Penn for some years now. But if you are deadset on the midwest and don't want NYC, then pick Michigan.

Better yet, retake and go full ride regional. ED NU for the off chance of a full ride there.

Yeah, Penn is an Ivy. "First-class" was the term I used to describe that Michigan is a good school. Could have used T14 or whatever. Already addressed that sports law is a difficult field. I said I hope to be going BigLaw, not sure that needs to be repeated again. Not deadset on the Midwest, just want to return here to raise a family.

@rayiner -- Can I do that? Penn had a matriculation form that appeared to be binding.

coreaves23 wrote:

ymmv wrote:

coreaves23 wrote:

redsoxfan1989 wrote:
Michigan has softer employment statistics than UVa or Penn, but if you want Chicago/Detroit/other midwest, I would pick Michigan over Penn.

I saw that as well and wondered if it was self-selection or just that Penn places better in the bigger markets.

CFC1524 wrote:GPA / LSAT? Just curious, no need to answer if you don't want to.

1. Penn is better for Biglaw
2. You're (probably?) taking a decent chunk of debt
3. Biglaw is basically the best way to pay off debt
4. Go to Penn.

Any full rides from strong regionals? One of those might be a better option here

PM me for stats. I get that Penn is better for BigLaw, but if I don't want NYC BigLaw, is it really that much better of an option? I am having trouble wrapping my head around turning down an Ivy, but think that Michigan is also first-class.

Ivy? First-class? Sports law?
To be brutally frank, you have not researched law school and the legal market well enough to justify spending $180,000 on what is essentially an uninformed decision.

Sports law does not exist. It's barely a rational goal for HYS and it's certainly not viable from MVP. If you choose to take out six figures in debt to attend law school, you need to do it based on the school that gives you the best chance of paying off your debt - almost certainly via biglaw - before you think about chasing unicorns through strawberry fields.

In any case, looking at overall employment statistics will reveal that Michigan has not been in the same league as Penn for some years now. But if you are deadset on the midwest and don't want NYC, then pick Michigan.

Better yet, retake and go full ride regional. ED NU for the off chance of a full ride there.

Yeah, Penn is an Ivy. "First-class" was the term I used to describe that Michigan is a good school. Could have used T14 or whatever. Already addressed that sports law is a difficult field. I said I hope to be going BigLaw, not sure that needs to be repeated again. Not deadset on the Midwest, just want to return here to raise a family.

@rayiner -- Can I do that? Penn had a matriculation form that appeared to be binding.

jrthor10 wrote:If both Penn and Mich offered you 10k you should be able to negotiate up with Mich. I would start there.

coreaves23 wrote:

jrthor10 wrote:If both Penn and Mich offered you 10k you should be able to negotiate up with Mich. I would start there.

Sorry, should have clarified. This is an outside scholarship from the BAR in my hometown. Both stated that they are "out of merit aid," so it sounds like negotiating is off the table.

@ymmv -- I've got ya, my fault. I thought "Ivy" applied at all levels in all graduate programs. http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org This is the place I am getting my employment statistics from -- this the best place to look? I have also been looking at lawschooltransparency.com

LST gives Michigan a MUCH lower employment score.

ymmv wrote:

coreaves23 wrote:

jrthor10 wrote:If both Penn and Mich offered you 10k you should be able to negotiate up with Mich. I would start there.

Sorry, should have clarified. This is an outside scholarship from the BAR in my hometown. Both stated that they are "out of merit aid," so it sounds like negotiating is off the table.

@ymmv -- I've got ya, my fault. I thought "Ivy" applied at all levels in all graduate programs. http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org This is the place I am getting my employment statistics from -- this the best place to look? I have also been looking at lawschooltransparency.com

LST gives Michigan a MUCH lower employment score.

Ivy may impress your non-lawyer friends but it won't get you a job or matter to anyone who knows anything about law school or the legal market.

The important thing about the ABA data is knowing how to read it. The closest measure of good biglaw employment outcomes is probably something like (firms w/ > 100 attorneys) + (federal clerkships) - (unemployed students) - (students employed by school) - (students in non-JD jobs).

By this or any similar metric you will find that Michigan has been underperforming its USNWR rank for at least four or five years. Last year, for instance, Michigan employed only 52% of its students in biglaw/clerkships vs. 71% at Penn.
Even more notably, Michigan had something like only 82% employed in legal (JD-required) jobs at all, with 91% employed at Penn. Michigan also had an overall unemployment rate of 10% vs. 2% at Penn.

Anyway, you get my point. If you had a full ride or a hefty scholarship I would say go to Michigan since you ultimately want to work in the midwest anyway. But I can't really recommend Michigan over Penn to someone paying near sticker.

MistakenGenius wrote:

ymmv wrote:

coreaves23 wrote:
Yeah, Penn is an Ivy. "First-class" was the term I used to describe that Michigan is a good school. Could have used T14 or whatever. Already addressed that sports law is a difficult field. I said I hope to be going BigLaw, not sure that needs to be repeated again. Not deadset on the Midwest, just want to return here to raise a family.

@rayiner -- Can I do that? Penn had a matriculation form that appeared to be binding.

Ivy is utterly meaningless in the context of law schools fyi. Penn is generally a better choice than Michigan because of its employment stats, not its undergrad athletic conference. This is partly what I meant by doing your homework.

Ivy is always utterly meaningless. It's an athletic conference, nothing else. OP, I'm generally one of the more patient people, but this is asinine. You have no clue about law school, but are about to go into life-ruining debt chasing a pipe dream. Anyone who says outright that Michigan or Penn is a better option is an uneducated, rankings-obsessed chimp (Looking at this CFC moron with 8 posts). Yes, Penn is better for Biglaw in New York, but you want neither of those goals. If you want to work in the Midwest (talk about lack of talented sports teams), then Penn is a horrible option. At any rate, neither option is worth 200 grand of debt.

coreaves23 wrote:

ymmv wrote:

coreaves23 wrote:

jrthor10 wrote:If both Penn and Mich offered you 10k you should be able to negotiate up with Mich. I would start there.

Sorry, should have clarified. This is an outside scholarship from the BAR in my hometown. Both stated that they are "out of merit aid," so it sounds like negotiating is off the table.

@ymmv -- I've got ya, my fault. I thought "Ivy" applied at all levels in all graduate programs. http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org This is the place I am getting my employment statistics from -- this the best place to look? I have also been looking at lawschooltransparency.com

LST gives Michigan a MUCH lower employment score.

Ivy may impress your non-lawyer friends but it won't get you a job or matter to anyone who knows anything about law school or the legal market.

The important thing about the ABA data is knowing how to read it. The closest measure of good biglaw employment outcomes is probably something like (firms w/ > 100 attorneys) + (federal clerkships) - (unemployed students) - (students employed by school) - (students in non-JD jobs).

By this or any similar metric you will find that Michigan has been underperforming its USNWR rank for at least four or five years. Last year, for instance, Michigan employed only 52% of its students in biglaw/clerkships vs. 71% at Penn.
Even more notably, Michigan had something like only 82% employed in legal (JD-required) jobs at all, with 91% employed at Penn. Michigan also had an overall unemployment rate of 10% vs. 2% at Penn.

Anyway, you get my point. If you had a full ride or a hefty scholarship I would say go to Michigan since you ultimately want to work in the midwest anyway. But I can't really recommend Michigan over Penn to someone paying near sticker.

Yes, those are great points -- I had not thought of using that formula to calculate a realistic "employment score." Do you think that has anything to do with Michigan's placement in academia? I've heard that it's better if you want to teach.

coreaves23 wrote: I just wonder if Penn will give me THAT much better of an education, or if a big factor in its placement is location.

coreaves23 wrote: I think I may just need to visit. I don't mind the city life that Penn would provide. Never been to either campus though.

MistakenGenius wrote:

ymmv wrote:

coreaves23 wrote:
Yeah, Penn is an Ivy. "First-class" was the term I used to describe that Michigan is a good school. Could have used T14 or whatever. Already addressed that sports law is a difficult field. I said I hope to be going BigLaw, not sure that needs to be repeated again. Not deadset on the Midwest, just want to return here to raise a family.

@rayiner -- Can I do that? Penn had a matriculation form that appeared to be binding.

Ivy is utterly meaningless in the context of law schools fyi. Penn is generally a better choice than Michigan because of its employment stats, not its undergrad athletic conference. This is partly what I meant by doing your homework.

Ivy is always utterly meaningless. It's an athletic conference, nothing else. OP, I'm generally one of the more patient people, but this is asinine. You have no clue about law school, but are about to go into life-ruining debt chasing a pipe dream. Anyone who says outright that Michigan or Penn is a better option is an uneducated, rankings-obsessed chimp (Looking at this CFC moron with 8 posts). Yes, Penn is better for Biglaw in New York, but you want neither of those goals. If you want to work in the Midwest (talk about lack of talented sports teams), then Penn is a horrible option. At any rate, neither option is worth 200 grand of debt.

Sports law does not exist in any meaningful way. I go to Yale but it would still be unbelievably stupid for me to gun for such a incorporeal profession. If you go to one of these two options hoping to do that, you're going to wind up in a city you don't want to live doing work that makes you miserable to pay back Uncle Sam, or he's going to fuck you up. If you're serious regarding sports law, you need to go on a full scholarship to a school that does well in the sport you hope to be in. UNC for basketball, Bama for football. Network like crazy. Otherwise, you need to completely rethink this profession.

jbagelboy wrote:Stop feeding OP bland answers as if this is a legitimate choice.

We already answered you in a previous thread. You have to retake the LSAT, take time off and reapply, both for you, your fiance, and your future family. Either choice for next year is reckless and unnecessary given your massive room for improvement (Just FYI everyone, OP would be k-jd).

Also just because you edited out the posts in your old thread doesn't mean we can't see them :/

coreaves23 wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:Stop feeding OP bland answers as if this is a legitimate choice.

We already answered you in a previous thread. You have to retake the LSAT, take time off and reapply, both for you, your fiance, and your future family. Either choice for next year is reckless and unnecessary given your massive room for improvement (Just FYI everyone, OP has 4.0+/162 and would be k-jd).

Also just because you edited out the posts in your old thread doesn't mean we can't see them :/

Circumstances have changed with Michigan admit. Thank you for your advice, but I am not going to retake, take time off, or reapply. I'm a big boy and if things don't work out that will be on me. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't post my numbers. Appears you have taken a liking to me and I am flattered/creeped out. I only did that because someone linked my LSN profile. Didn't know you could still see.