Michigan v.s. Penn Forum

[NYSprague]

How does OP know for sure he can't improve?

[03152016]

Just so I'm clear, are all of your COL costs covered? As in, 100%?

If not, approximately how much do you intend to borrow for COL in the first year?

[coreaves23]

What if OP feels like he maximized his study time, and cannot improve on the LSAT anymore?

He already said he understand that if he improves he could save $240,000. He has said it doesn't fit into his plans. If he has two more takes, he should use them.

But, I mean, even if it all works out, even if all his dreams come true and he gets a market paying job somewhere, he will have years of debt to repay, instead of saving and investing that money. It is just a waste.

As stated before, I did retake the LSAT this June. You act like everybody and their sister goes to T14 with $ which isn't the case.

What if OP feels like he maximized his study time, and cannot improve on the LSAT anymore?

He already said he understand that if he improves he could save $240,000. He has said it doesn't fit into his plans. If he has two more takes, he should use them.

But, I mean, even if it all works out, even if all his dreams come true and he gets a market paying job somewhere, he will have years of debt to repay, instead of saving and investing that money. It is just a waste.

He can't improve. I know OP's situation. He feels like he can't improve thus the reason why I asked that.

This is awful advice. If he has retakes left he should use them. The debt is no joke and can be life-changing. I see it on the faces of the attorneys I work with on a daily basis. The only part of law school that matters are the exams. If you can't improve on the LSAT which is extremely learn-able how will you fare on law school exams that are much more important??

LOL yeah, since LSAT score is completely predictive of how well you do on law school exams. Studying for the LSAT improves how well you can do on the LSAT. Are law school exams now multiple choice exams??

[ymmv]

Half of law school exams are multiple choice exams.

[coreaves23]

Somewhat tangential question: if OP were able to raise his LSAT score, that would mean some schools would offer him a lot of money to attend which would drastically reduce debt. But I think it's safe to say that the schools offering that money would probably be lower in the T-14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have the best chance at biglaw if you go to a much higher ranked school? Like no lower than CCN? And HYSCCN is probably not going to offer OP a substantial amount of money even if he does have a 4.0 and even if he did increase his LSAT score. I'm super new so correct me if I'm wrong, but if OP had a high GPA and high LSAT, and got accepted by, say, Harvard, he should probably go to Harvard even if it means $200,000 debt. So whether OP retakes or not, it seems like debt will still be inevitable.

That is not remotely the case. Anyone who gets accepted to Harvard can leverage full rides to Cornell, NU, or their regional flagship of choice. Hell, they could probably negotiate a hefty sum out of Chicago, in OP's case.
For 99% of people the full ride lower T14 will be the better option over Harvard. And that 1% are very literally the 1%, as in your father is Bill Gates and money is utterly meaningless to you.

That's too funny. Yeah, I am definitely not in the 1%.

How does OP know for sure he can't improve?

Utilized all the resources I have, taken every PT from 30-39 and 50+, did 7sage, LSAT Trainer, all 3 PowerScore Bibles, etc.

Just so I'm clear, are all of your COL costs covered? As in, 100%?

If not, approximately how much do you intend to borrow for COL in the first year?

Yes, COL will be completely covered -- 100%.

Half of law school exams are multiple choice exams.

First, I would love for you to verify that statistic. Two, they are crafted very similar to the multiple choice problems on the LSAT?

[Crowing]

Half of law school exams are multiple choice exams.

Probably depends on where you go

I've never taken one

[ymmv]

It's not a statistic, just generalized anecdata based on my school and the schools my friends go to.
And no, LS exams are nothing like the LSAT. I had a mediocre performance on the LSAT but have done quite well on LS exams. Studying for the two is not remotely similar IMO.

[NYSprague]

I don't act like everyone goes with money, not everyone has the GPA to do that.

I don't think law is worth $200,000 of non dischargeable debt, but I've always been debt averse.

I know you won't listen to advice. Between these two schools, I would go to Penn. I don't believe in Michigan's placement as much as Penn.

[NoChainz]

What if OP feels like he maximized his study time, and cannot improve on the LSAT anymore?

He already said he understand that if he improves he could save $240,000. He has said it doesn't fit into his plans. If he has two more takes, he should use them.

But, I mean, even if it all works out, even if all his dreams come true and he gets a market paying job somewhere, he will have years of debt to repay, instead of saving and investing that money. It is just a waste.

He can't improve. I know OP's situation. He feels like he can't improve thus the reason why I asked that.

This is awful advice. If he has retakes left he should use them. The debt is no joke and can be life-changing. I see it on the faces of the attorneys I work with on a daily basis. The only part of law school that matters are the exams. If you can't improve on the LSAT which is extremely learn-able how will you fare on law school exams that are much more important??

LOL yeah, since LSAT score is completely predictive of how well you do on law school exams. Studying for the LSAT improves how well you can do on the LSAT. Are law school exams now multiple choice exams??[/quote]

At least in one section this year at Penn 3 of the 5 required courses had a multiple choice component on the exam.

Regardless not trying to harp on you, I would choose Penn in your situation because of a better employment situation. That is just a lot of debt to be taking on without fully exhausting your options. Best of luck.

[coreaves23]

It's not a statistic, just generalized anecdata based on my school and the schools my friends go to.
And no, LS exams are nothing like the LSAT. I had a mediocre performance on the LSAT but have done quite well on LS exams. Studying for the two is not remotely similar IMO.

That gives me hope then! I have heard that they are nothing like, but have few friends in law school.

I don't act like everyone goes with money, not everyone has the GPA to do that.

I don't think law is worth $200,000 of non dischargeable debt, but I've always been debt averse.

I know you won't listen to advice. Between these two schools, I would go to Penn. I don't believe in Michigan's placement as much as Penn.

Oh, I'm listening to your advice. You want me to follow it, which I'm not doing. I'm still listening. Is placement the sole reason for Penn over Michigan. I am making a pros and cons list with my fiancé, but I would love to hear some pros/cons from those of you who have attended one of the two or have friends at one of them!

@NoChainz -- I appreciate that! You think Penn over Michigan just for employment as well? Employment prospects surely tip the scale in Penn's favor IMO.

[Ramius]

It's not a statistic, just generalized anecdata based on my school and the schools my friends go to.
And no, LS exams are nothing like the LSAT. I had a mediocre performance on the LSAT but have done quite well on LS exams. Studying for the two is not remotely similar IMO.

That gives me hope then! I have heard that they are nothing like, but have few friends in law school.

I don't act like everyone goes with money, not everyone has the GPA to do that.

I don't think law is worth $200,000 of non dischargeable debt, but I've always been debt averse.

I know you won't listen to advice. Between these two schools, I would go to Penn. I don't believe in Michigan's placement as much as Penn.

Oh, I'm listening to your advice. You want me to follow it, which I'm not doing. I'm still listening. Is placement the sole reason for Penn over Michigan. I am making a pros and cons list with my fiancé, but I would love to hear some pros/cons from those of you who have attended one of the two or have friends at one of them!

@NoChainz -- I appreciate that! You think Penn over Michigan just for employment as well? Employment prospects surely tip the scale in Penn's favor IMO.

No disrespect, but if Penn has better employment at equal costs and you're not willing to retake for less cost, what else is there exactly? This is a professional school designed to get you the job you want as a lawyer, so if one is better than the other at doing that at the same cost, you shouldn't need any other advice, should you?

MAYBE there are other mitigating factors you could consider in your personal situation like spousal employment, family ties, etc., but those are your factors we know nothing about. In a vacuum, Penn is better than Michigan for BIGLAW. What else are you hoping to extract here?

[coreaves23]

It's not a statistic, just generalized anecdata based on my school and the schools my friends go to.
And no, LS exams are nothing like the LSAT. I had a mediocre performance on the LSAT but have done quite well on LS exams. Studying for the two is not remotely similar IMO.

That gives me hope then! I have heard that they are nothing like, but have few friends in law school.

I don't act like everyone goes with money, not everyone has the GPA to do that.

I don't think law is worth $200,000 of non dischargeable debt, but I've always been debt averse.

I know you won't listen to advice. Between these two schools, I would go to Penn. I don't believe in Michigan's placement as much as Penn.

Oh, I'm listening to your advice. You want me to follow it, which I'm not doing. I'm still listening. Is placement the sole reason for Penn over Michigan. I am making a pros and cons list with my fiancé, but I would love to hear some pros/cons from those of you who have attended one of the two or have friends at one of them!

@NoChainz -- I appreciate that! You think Penn over Michigan just for employment as well? Employment prospects surely tip the scale in Penn's favor IMO.

No disrespect, but if Penn has better employment at equal costs and you're not willing to retake for less cost, what else is there exactly? This is a professional school designed to get you the job you want as a lawyer, so if one is better than the other at doing that at the same cost, you shouldn't need any other advice, should you?

MAYBE there are other mitigating factors you could consider in your personal situation like spousal employment, family ties, etc., but those are your factors we know nothing about. In a vacuum, Penn is better than Michigan for BIGLAW. What else are you hoping to extract here?

No disrespect taken! Your logic makes complete sense and that is why I am leaning towards Penn. I should have made my original post more clear. I was really hoping that those who have went to Penn or Michigan could give me the pros/cons of each school. I have my own pros/cons, but figure that others would have a better idea if they had went there or know someone who did.

[ymmv]

Law school is not like an undergrad or graduate program. Literally the only value in a particular law school - or any professional school for that matter - is the job it gets you at the end, not the value of the class instruction or the prominence of your professors or the size of the old faux gothic buildings or whatever other useless metric anyone suggests. I don't know how many different ways we can say this, but hopefully it makes an impression.

[03152016]

OP, you and I are alike. I almost went to school at sticker. Almost as in -- was accepted, had withdrawn from other schools, was seat deposited, and had announced, definitively, that I was going.

I had so thoroughly rationalized my decision there was almost no getting through to me ("Well at least I'm not borrowing $300k", "I don't think I'd have a better outcome next cycle", "I'll pay it off in only five years of biglaw!", "I have to go THIS YEAR, I'm already 26 and sat out last year", "Everyone else is doing it", "I've already announced to everyone that I'm going, so that's that", "I'm a splitter, I should be thankful I have the opportunity to pay sticker here").

Still, there was some remote part of me that was aware I was making a poor decision. I wasn't borrowing $300k, but I knew deep down that borrowing $200k was still a severe risk. I told myself I wouldn't do better next cycle, yet I was aware there were changes I could make that would almost guarantee a better outcome. I believed I could rely on biglaw, knowing full well that the system is riddled with failure points - even the hardest working, most motivated students at elite schools strike out, get cold-offered/no-offered, burn out of biglaw in a year, or get canned before they have a chance to make an exit.

I had developed, in effect, a blind spot. Nothing anyone said really applied to my situation -- I was going, and that was that. And, like I suspect you will, I stuck to my guns. I marched forward with my plan until, miraculously, a freak financial accident occurred and all of a sudden it turned out that I would be taking out far less than I had originally planned. I got cut a break.

But after the glow of my victory had worn off, I was overcome by horror. Now that I didn't need to rationalize paying sticker, the mental contortions I had made to quiet my inner objections now seemed so obvious, so exposed. What was I thinking? Messaging law students who I knew had paid sticker looking for validation? Plotting out a food budget that included rice and beans three dinners a week and pasta the other four? Automatically skipping over posts from certain people because I didn't want to acknowledge I was making a mistake? And worst, accepting an objectively terrible outcome, for the mere chance at a job that might possibly get me out of debt someday -- a job I knew nothing about except that I'd likely hate it. I'm a smart, reasonable person, but even with all of the right information in front of me, I had gotten it wrong.

So I get where you're coming from, and I think what you're doing is normal. Maybe it's the case that your mind is made up, you think none of this applies to you, and you're ready to sign on the dotted-line. I wish I could psychically transmit my moment of revelation to you, but I can't. I just hope that you try to keep an open mind, continue to hear people out, and keep searching.

[coreaves23]

Law school is not like an undergrad or graduate program. Literally the only value in a particular law school - or any professional school for that matter - is the job it gets you at the end, not the value of the class instruction or the prominence of your professors or the size of the old faux gothic buildings or whatever other useless metric anyone suggests. I don't know how many different ways we can say this, but hopefully it makes an impression.

Yes, I fully understand that you guys are voting Penn -- I am leaning that way as well. I just want to make sure that I am fully informed of the pros/cons of each before I make my decision. Clearly, employment is the most important (by a wide margin).

OP, you and I are alike. I almost went to school at sticker. Almost as in -- was accepted, had withdrawn from other schools, was seat deposited, and had announced, definitively, that i was going.

I had so thoroughly rationalized my decision there was almost no getting through to me ("Well at least I'm not borrowing $300k", "I don't think I'd have a better outcome next cycle", "I'll pay it off in only five years of biglaw!", "I have to go THIS YEAR, I'm already 26 and sat out last year", "Everyone else is doing it", "I've already announced to everyone that I'm going, so that's that", "I'm a splitter, I should be thankful I have the opportunity to pay sticker here").

Still, there was some remote part of me that was aware I was making a poor decision. I wasn't borrowing $300k, but I knew deep down that borrowing $200k was still a severe risk. I told myself I wouldn't do better next cycle, even thought I was aware there were changes I could make that would almost guarantee a better outcome. I believed I could rely on biglaw, knowing full well that the system is riddled with failure points - even the hardest working, most motivated students at elite schools strike out, get cold-offered/no-offered, burn out of biglaw in a year, or get canned before they have a chance to make an exit.

I had developed, in effect, a blind spot. Nothing anyone said really applied to my situation-- I was going, and that was that. And, like I suspect you will, I stuck to my guns. I marched forward with my plan until, miraculously, a freak financial accident occurred and all of a sudden it turned out that I would be taking out far less than I had originally planned. I got cut a break.

But after the glow of my victory had worn off, I was overcome by horror. Now that I didn't need to rationalize paying sticker, the mental contortions I had made to quiet my inner objections now seemed so obvious, so exposed. What was I thinking? Messaging law students who I knew had paid sticker looking for validation? Plotting out a food budget that included rice and beans three dinners a week and pasta the other four? Automatically skipping over posts from certain people because I didn't want to acknowledge I was making a mistake? And worst, accepting an objectively terrible outcome, for the mere chance at a job that might possibly get me out of debt someday -- a job I knew nothing about except that I'd likely hate it. I'm a smart, reasonable person, but even with all of the right information in front of me, I had gotten it wrong.

So I get where you're coming from, and I think what you're doing is normal. Maybe it's the case that your mind is made up, you think none of this applies to you, and you're ready to sign on the dotted-line. I wish I could psychically transmit my moment of revelation to you, but I can't. I just hope that you try to keep an open mind, continue to hear people out, and keep searching.

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your post. All of those rationalizations run through my mind every day! Haha. I promise that I am keeping an open mind (perhaps I did extremely well on this June's LSAT and I will defer for a cycle). I am hearing everyone out and can assure you that I reading each and every post.

[Nomo]

I remember when I was picking law schools Michigan put out a list of notable alumni. On the list was Rob Pelinka - agent for Kobe Bryant and a bunch of other NBA players. I looked a little deeper and learned that Pelinka worked for a big firm a few years before becoming an agent. But working for a big firm wasn't the key to his becoming a sports agent. The key was that he played college basketball at Michigan for 4 years, which put him in touch with 7 NBA players (plus any NBA players he might have known from his high school days). It also put him in touch with Steve Fisher and a bunch of assistants, most of whom continued to hang around big-time college basketball for the next few decades. That's a network. And because he was a lawyer with THAT network Arn Tellem recruited him to become a sports agent.

If you know multiple NBA players and college basketball coaches working in big-time programs who trust you and are willing to steer other athletes in your direction then you've got a real shot at becoming a successful sports agent whether you go to school at Michigan, Penn, or Cooley. If you don't have that kind of network you need to put off law school and find a way to build it.

[star fox]

You should wait for your most recent LSAT score before you decide anything. If your score goes up tell these schools to give you money or they can find someone else for that seat.

[coreaves23]

You should wait for your most recent LSAT score before you decide anything. If your score goes up tell these schools to give you money or they can find someone else for that seat.

Penn gave me a deadline of Wednesday. I asked for an extension, but I worry that they will not allow me an extension through approx. July 1st.

[Learn_Live_Hope]

...

[coreaves23]

You should wait for your most recent LSAT score before you decide anything. If your score goes up tell these schools to give you money or they can find someone else for that seat.

Penn gave me a deadline of Wednesday. I asked for an extension, but I worry that they will not allow me an extension through approx. July 1st.

What's your deadline for Michigan?

I planned on saying that you should wait for your June LSAT score as well before you make your decision...

2 weeks!!!

[moonman157]

Going to either of these schools at this cost will require biglaw to pay off the debt. Penn ITE is far superior for biglaw. If you don't want to have to work biglaw out of law school, retake for significantly cheaper options. But I realize that it's extremely tough to go to a T14 for cheap. So basically, your options are Mich/Penn (probably Penn) at its current price and work biglaw, or retake the LSAT for cheaper options (but even then you'll probably be paying a lot for law school, and there's no guarantee that you'll get a much better LSAT score). Basically, the problem is with the state of the legal market, not you, but it's something you have to deal with if you want to go to law school in this age.

[coreaves23]

Going to either of these schools at this cost will require biglaw to pay off the debt. Penn ITE is far superior for biglaw. If you don't want to have to work biglaw out of law school, retake for significantly cheaper options. But I realize that it's extremely tough to go to a T14 for cheap. So basically, your options are Mich/Penn (probably Penn) at its current price and work biglaw, or retake the LSAT for cheaper options (but even then you'll probably be paying a lot for law school, and there's no guarantee that you'll get a much better LSAT score). Basically, the problem is with the state of the legal market, not you, but it's something you have to deal with if you want to go to law school in this age.

Appreciate your post! I realize that BigLaw is going to be a must! Do you think that Penn is the best option as of now?

[Onomatopoeia]

Don't quote :

Employers respect fiscal responsibility. If Michigan ponies up a solid named scholarship, I'd go there. Leverage ur Penn acceptance w them. You can put ur scholarship on ur resume at that point and with tuition hikes going the way they are, people will respect you for making the fiscally responsible decision.

If Michigan doesn't give u more money, I'd retake or apply earlier next cycle and enjoy life for a bit - like many others have suggested

Good luck man.

[NYSprague]

^^^^
Firms don't care about how you paid for law school.

[moonman157]

Going to either of these schools at this cost will require biglaw to pay off the debt. Penn ITE is far superior for biglaw. If you don't want to have to work biglaw out of law school, retake for significantly cheaper options. But I realize that it's extremely tough to go to a T14 for cheap. So basically, your options are Mich/Penn (probably Penn) at its current price and work biglaw, or retake the LSAT for cheaper options (but even then you'll probably be paying a lot for law school, and there's no guarantee that you'll get a much better LSAT score). Basically, the problem is with the state of the legal market, not you, but it's something you have to deal with if you want to go to law school in this age.

Appreciate your post! I realize that BigLaw is going to be a must! Do you think that Penn is the best option as of now?

At equal (or even close to equal) cost Penn is undoubtably superior to Michigan for biglaw. If you can get more money out of Michigan that may change things, but otherwise Penn is definitely the way to go. But just realize what you are getting yourself into when you commit yourself to law school based on getting biglaw. Best of luck!