Top Law Schools

Hi, I am looking at UNC, Boston College, Wake Forest, OSU moritz, iowa, oklahoma, kansas, and michigan state. I dont want biglaw, I want midlaw or even slightly smaller. I want to work in the midwest/greatplains area of the country. Secondary markets. Which of these schools is my best bet for my career goals. I have no ties to the midwest, but it is where I would like to settle down with my family. I am grateful for any advice you could give!

Where do you have ties? What scholly offers have you gotten?

Please better define "midlaw."

If you mean regional biglaw, which pays well, albeit below market, none of these because none place particularly well into biglaw.

If you mean boutique firms practicing in the midwest/plains, which also pay well, none of these as these firms are hypercompetitive.

If you mean anything more than solo, pick the region where you actually have any sort of ties and go there while minimizing debt because you won't get paid much.

HTH

This sounds like a pretty bad idea all around. But if you want to generically live in the Midwest I guess I would say target UIUC. The ease of admittance and scholarship levels are pretty out of whack with their employment prospects and regional prestige (in the applicant's favor).

You've got this process wrong though. Pick which state, and, more importantly, what city you want to be in long term, then go to the school that places the most people in that city and has the lowest COA. You almost certainly won't get "midlaw" jobs out of these schools, and you'll get a small law job by hustling, networking, and interning. So, basically, don't go to fucking UNC or Wake because you want to get a job in Dubuque, Fargo, or some random ass Midwest town. Go where you want to practice.

Also, pry retake.

My ties are in kentucky and california, neither of which I want to practice in. I would like to practice in kansas city. Is kansas the best option for that even though it is ranked so low? By midlaw I mean firms with 50-150 attorneys. I also would not be opposed to oklahoma city. I would be happy pretty much anywhere in those regions. I just want my salary to go a lot further then it would in the bigger cities.

What secondary markets do you suggest? Or schools. I am not interested in retaking. I have 163 lsat and 3.7 gpa.

kentuckybbnlaw wrote:What secondary markets do you suggest? Or schools. I am not interested in retaking. I have 163 lsat and 3.7 gpa.

You are interested in pointless things. You want a job anywhere doing some kind of law that you have heard about.

Tell me, what salary do you think you will earn? How many jobs for entry level lawyers do you think there are in Kansas every year?

kentuckybbnlaw wrote:My ties are in kentucky and california, neither of which I want to practice in. I would like to practice in kansas city. Is kansas the best option for that even though it is ranked so low? By midlaw I mean firms with 50-150 attorneys. I also would not be opposed to oklahoma city. I would be happy pretty much anywhere in those regions. I just want my salary to go a lot further then it would in the bigger cities.

Use lawschooltransparency.com to see what is the best for that city.

Midlaw firms of that size build their ranks by two methods: (1) Highly qualified, experienced biglaw associates who are looking to return to their home region, and (2) experienced local small law attorneys who have built up their own books of business. Depending on the firm, they might bring on an associate every year from their summer ranks, but their summer programs are much more likely than biglaw to have crappy offer rates.

Your most likely outcome at most of the plains schools is a local small law gig making 40-50K.

Retake, go for full ride at UIUC, Iowa, or whatever state in the midwest you want to work. If you don't even know where in the midwest you want to end up, definitely don't go this year. Figure out where you want to go, and apply to ones in that state/neighboring states only.

I would hope to make about 60-70k. This may be on the high end but from what I have heard it is very possible if you do well. So if kansas city was my ideal location, would it be smarter to go to kansas, the flagship state school which is ranked horribly, or UIUC or Iowa which are obviously not in Kansas but are ranked and viewed as significantly better schools?

There are virtually no entry level legal positions that will pay 60-70k in the locations you want. I'd be surprised if you were making that 4+ years into practice. Considering you have no ties to the midwest, it's going to be even harder to get into this market than for the "normal" law students at these schools.

Because your goals are fairly close to "completely unattainable" level barring an LSAT retake, go to the cheapest school you possibly can so that you don't trap yourself in a ton of debt chasing this.

Rayiner, why'd you peace out? Kansas seems like OP's best option, unless I'm missing something?

twenty wrote:There are virtually no entry level legal positions that will pay 60-70k in the locations you want. I'd be surprised if you were making that 4+ years into practice. Considering you have no ties to the midwest, it's going to be even harder to get into this market than for the "normal" law students at these schools.

Because your goals are fairly close to "completely unattainable" level barring an LSAT retake, go to the cheapest school you possibly can so that you don't trap yourself in a ton of debt chasing this.

Insurance defense pays 60ish in smallish midwestern cities.

kentuckybbnlaw wrote:I would hope to make about 60-70k. This may be on the high end but from what I have heard it is very possible if you do well. So if kansas city was my ideal location, would it be smarter to go to kansas, the flagship state school which is ranked horribly, or UIUC or Iowa which are obviously not in Kansas but are ranked and viewed as significantly better schools?

Here's U of I's employment stats: http://www.law.uiowa.edu/documents/cso_ ... y_2013.pdf

If you want to get a job at a firm with > 50 attorneys, you're talking about 18% of the class. 25% if you assume all of the federal clerks can get one of those jobs too. Not a bad chance, and salary at those places is probably more like $70k+ at the bottom end, up to $160k for the few folks who get a big firm. But there's an approximately equal chance you'll end up at a firm with 2-25 attorneys, where $40-50k is more likely to be the salary. Also an approximately equal chance that you'll end up as one of the folks who has no JD-required job at all.

Here's their stats: http://www.law.uiowa.edu/documents/ABAS ... Report.pdf

17% of the whole class is on full tuition scholarship, and you're at their 75th's (163/3.7). So I think you have a very good shot at getting a lot of money, and if you can go cheaply, U of I wouldn't be a bad choice.

EDIT: twenty, I didn't realize how low LSAT medians have gotten. I think OP could get full ride at U of I with his stats.

kentuckybbnlaw wrote:I would hope to make about 60-70k. This may be on the high end but from what I have heard it is very possible if you do well. So if kansas city was my ideal location, would it be smarter to go to kansas, the flagship state school which is ranked horribly, or UIUC or Iowa which are obviously not in Kansas but are ranked and viewed as significantly better schools?

hey bud. u kansas and kansas city are real close but kansas city isn't in kansas, so i'm not sure how law firms view u kansas (or whether they view it as the "flagship" of KC). I say retake, get close to 168-170 and go to WUSTL full ride.

There is no straight out of school midlaw, that's a pipe dream.

Go to a school in your target region (can't recommend KU to anyone though) that allows you to keep your debt near zero, then work small law for a few years with hopes of climbing up with that experience to stand on. Or better yet retake-->keep debt down at a school that actually has biglaw prospects-->target biglaw in the midwest, and lateral to a smaller firm after 3-5yrs.

OP, you really should retake and get a full ride to WUSTL. You're only like 4-5 points away, that's like 5 questions out of 100. Then you could target KC a lot more easily than most of these other schools you have in mind, and you would have an actual chance at midwestern "biglaw" with good grades.

(kill it on the retake and get some money to Northwestern would be even better)

Good luck

.

Full-ish ride to WUSTL is about the only thing that really makes sense for a wanna-be Plains/Midwest wanderer who doesn't know what they want to do (other than get a cushy, well-paying job that essentially doesn't exist).

If OP wanted Upper Midwest and refused to retake then UIUC or Iowa for freesies wouldn't be bad.

Kansas City is half in Missouri, half in Kansas.

There is University of Missouri Kansas City there, though. Their stats are worse than Kansas.

rad lulz wrote:

kentuckybbnlaw wrote:I would hope to make about 60-70k. This may be on the high end but from what I have heard it is very possible if you do well. So if kansas city was my ideal location, would it be smarter to go to kansas, the flagship state school which is ranked horribly, or UIUC or Iowa which are obviously not in Kansas but are ranked and viewed as significantly better schools?

Kansas City is in Missouri so why is Kansas the flagship school

Yeah if anything Mizzou wins that designation, but both KU and Mizzou law suck. Can't recommend. Only justifyable for free.

OP, it's pretty obvious to retake and go to a better school since your current goals are gonna need it. Or adjust your goals.

Wishing you the best but you need the truth too.

Ricky-Bobby wrote:Kansas City is half in Missouri, half in Kansas.

There is University of Missouri Kansas City there, though. Their stats are worse than Kansas.

It's just like STL: the city and anything worthwhile is in Missouri, and the shitty flood plains region for wanna b's and lingerers is across the border

and lol UMKC Law...

Fiero85 wrote: It's just like STL: the city and anything worthwhile is in Missouri, and the shitty flood plains region for wanna b's and lingerers is across the border

and lol UMKC Law...

I'd be more upset by this if the Illinois side of St. Louis wasn't East St. Louis.

Ricky-Bobby wrote:

Fiero85 wrote: It's just like STL: the city and anything worthwhile is in Missouri, and the shitty flood plains region for wanna b's and lingerers is across the border

and lol UMKC Law...

I'd be more upset by this if the Illinois side of St. Louis wasn't East St. Louis.

Mhm feel free to dissociate with ESTL to maintain your holier-than-thou worldview

I would tread carefully. You don't seem to know exactly what it is you want to do and you don't seem to have a good idea what kind of firms people are going to in the areas you're talking about. I'm not sure what you mean by midlaw or what you think midlaw lawyers do. Try to figure that out before jumping in.

Also, most small and mid sized firms prefer to hire local people with ties. They care much more about ties than biglaw. Why? Because they want you to start bringing in business sooner rather than later. They want people with deep ties to an area so that when someone in the community realizes he needs a lawyer and starts asking his friends if they know any good ones, your name is going to come up. There are less institutional clients. Relationships matter big time.

You should get full rides or close to it at OU, KU, Mizzou. Those are good choices if you want to live and work in the area. I assume you are a people person or you wouldn't even be considering this cross country move? That'll help.

Try to keep debt down by working as much as you can after 1L. I made 10k working while in school, which was without a big law SA and was very doable. From someone with experience, I can tell you that in this area of the country there is a big difference between your average 5 person firm and the average 20 person firm. Expect most of the former to start you off at 45-50k, and most of the latter a bit more, all the way up to considerably more. 20 attorneys is a large law firm in OKC.

I disagree with whoever said you wouldn't make 60 four years out. Salaries will go up. Maybe there are sweatshops on the coast and that throws the advice here.. Dunno. I've been in this area for 30+ years and know a ton of lawyers. That's where I'm coming from.

Fiero85 wrote:

Ricky-Bobby wrote:

Fiero85 wrote: It's just like STL: the city and anything worthwhile is in Missouri, and the shitty flood plains region for wanna b's and lingerers is across the border

and lol UMKC Law...

I'd be more upset by this if the Illinois side of St. Louis wasn't East St. Louis.

Mhm feel free to dissociate with ESTL to maintain your holier-than-thou worldview

E StL:


Where I live:


Dick.


OP, Midwest markets are a lot more insular than you probably think. Everyone I know is naturally suspicious of people from out of the area. Even people from other Midwestern states are looked at funny.

I don't know about law hiring specifically, but I assume most firms are weary of flight risks. You'd have to work extra hard to convince them of your desire to stay. I can't imagine being out of state and at the local TTT.