Joint Degree in Health... something? Forum

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simplytea

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Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:07 pm

Hi all,

Long time watcher, first time poster. I have a rather narrow question to ask regarding law schools--I've seen a variety of people ask about JD/MPH dual degrees, but am hoping to complete (SPECIFICALLY) a JD/MHA dual degree. As far as I can tell, only a few random schools offer this (Iowa, W&L), but several offer the JD/MPH program. I'm rather set on doing some type of healthcare law (which type I don't know yet, but that's what law school is for anyway!), but more on the administrative/policy/helping get access to side than the biology/chemistry side (which I suck at anyway). More of a goal to end up in nonprofit health law/hospital general counsel/federal gov't health law than anything else.

My question is whether a joint degree JD with Masters in Healthcare is even worth it if I want to go into health law, or if I should just scrap the idea altogether and specialize in health law during the jd process? If you think I should do the dual program, where is a good school that you can do this at? I'm looking more in the DC/MD/VA area, so probably Georgetown, GW, UVA, William & Mary, American, UMD, etc. than other schools. Does anyone have experience with this? And, further, has anyone gone into healthcare law after law school?

And since you're going to ask anyway, right now my LSAT score is 167 but I'm retaking in October (with clearly hopes for a higher score), with a 3.5 GPA.

Any advice you can give would be very appreciated :)

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McAvoy

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by McAvoy » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:30 pm

Dual degrees sound neat and fun and everything but it's almost certainly not worth the money or time. It's definitely not a necessary condition to break into the practice. Anecdotally, the health lawyers I know do not have MPHs.

It's definitely not worth going to a non-peer school over, at any rate.

simplytea

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:15 pm

Will_McAvoy wrote:Dual degrees sound neat and fun and everything but it's almost certainly not worth the money or time. It's definitely not a necessary condition to break into the practice. Anecdotally, the health lawyers I know do not have MPHs.

It's definitely not worth going to a non-peer school over, at any rate.

Thanks for responding--my intention is not to go anywhere under the top 75 schools (I would prefer to go to a t-20 school, but wouldn't everyone?). I am not looking to go to Iowa or really W&L for that matter, I just named them because they were the only programs I could find that specifically had both the JD and the MHA.

I know that health lawyers today don't have MPHs, but my generation is going to have a lot of JDs, so I'm wondering if the MHA would give me a leg up when applying to pharmaceutical companies, hospital companies, department of health and human services, etc.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by timbs4339 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:18 pm

simplytea wrote:
Will_McAvoy wrote:Dual degrees sound neat and fun and everything but it's almost certainly not worth the money or time. It's definitely not a necessary condition to break into the practice. Anecdotally, the health lawyers I know do not have MPHs.

It's definitely not worth going to a non-peer school over, at any rate.

Thanks for responding--my intention is not to go anywhere under the top 75 schools (I would prefer to go to a t-20 school, but wouldn't everyone?). I am not looking to go to Iowa or really W&L for that matter, I just named them because they were the only programs I could find that specifically had both the JD and the MHA.

I know that health lawyers today don't have MPHs, but my generation is going to have a lot of JDs, so I'm wondering if the MHA would give me a leg up when applying to pharmaceutical companies, hospital companies, department of health and human services, etc.
No. It's not (pharma companies are not going to hire entry-level in-house lawyers unless you have an IP degree). What might help is actual experience in the field.

simplytea

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:22 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
simplytea wrote:
Will_McAvoy wrote:Dual degrees sound neat and fun and everything but it's almost certainly not worth the money or time. It's definitely not a necessary condition to break into the practice. Anecdotally, the health lawyers I know do not have MPHs.

It's definitely not worth going to a non-peer school over, at any rate.

Thanks for responding--my intention is not to go anywhere under the top 75 schools (I would prefer to go to a t-20 school, but wouldn't everyone?). I am not looking to go to Iowa or really W&L for that matter, I just named them because they were the only programs I could find that specifically had both the JD and the MHA.

I know that health lawyers today don't have MPHs, but my generation is going to have a lot of JDs, so I'm wondering if the MHA would give me a leg up when applying to pharmaceutical companies, hospital companies, department of health and human services, etc.
No. It's not (pharma companies are not going to hire entry-level in-house lawyers unless you have an IP degree). What might help is actual experience in the field.
So should I strive for a good clerkship/internship during law school? In a stack of JD applicants for an entry-level associate or legal position at a hospital or nonprofit, would a MHA boost my chances at all?

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McAvoy

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by McAvoy » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:25 pm

You need to get "top x" schools out of your head. That's a really bad way to make a decision. If you can't get into the T14 with a little money, or can't get into the ~T19 with serious money, go to your best local school if you can get close to a full ride, or don't go at all. Rankings don't matter at all, there are "national" schools, regional schools with national reputations, and local schools. Go to the one that gives you the best blend of employment prospects and scholarships that is in an area you have roots in or is in an area you want to be long-term.

If you're applying to jobs as a lawyer I don't know why they would care -- they probably want the best lawyer, regardless of whether they spent an extra year on a degree they'll never utilize in their legal work. If you want to do something that doesn't involve lawyering then get an MPH without the JD.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by underwood15 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:28 pm

i work in the healthcare/pharma field and will be going to law school next year. i work with a lot of health care attorneys and many of them have jd/mphs. i have also grappled with this issue and think I will be pursuing a jd/mph but only because i want to have more of a science background and it only takes on extra semester for the program i would be in to get my mph. also, to get a job at a hospital or pharma company, you need to put in a few years at a firm at the very minimum before even thinking of applying to those sorts of jobs.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by whatsyourdeal » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:32 pm

I'm sure the additional degree in MPH or MHA would help in that it would give you further insight into the health field, however it is not necessary and the extra financial resources spent on the degree wouldn't be worth it.

To get your foot into healthcare law, it is absolutely necessary to have prior experience and some prior knowledge/ability to learn the ever evolving field.

Also, I cannot emphasize enough that networking in such a niche area can go a long way, especially if you are looking into gov't.

I'm currently in-house for a healthcare co., and had prior legal healthcare experience prior to and during law school.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:37 pm

whatsyourdeal wrote:I'm sure the additional degree in MPH or MHA would help in that it would give you further insight into the health field, however it is not necessary and the extra financial resources spent on the degree wouldn't be worth it.

To get your foot into healthcare law, it is absolutely necessary to have prior experience and some prior knowledge/ability to learn the ever evolving field.

Also, I cannot emphasize enough that networking in such a niche area can go a long way, especially if you are looking into gov't.

I'm currently in-house for a healthcare co., and had prior legal healthcare experience prior to and during law school.
This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for--thank you! What do you think are the best ways to get experience in the field during (or before) law school? I know I clearly won't get my dream job straight out of law school, but hopefully I can be closer towards my goal (besides just achieving the JD) than when I started.

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simplytea

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:39 pm

underwood15 wrote:i work in the healthcare/pharma field and will be going to law school next year. i work with a lot of health care attorneys and many of them have jd/mphs. i have also grappled with this issue and think I will be pursuing a jd/mph but only because i want to have more of a science background and it only takes on extra semester for the program i would be in to get my mph. also, to get a job at a hospital or pharma company, you need to put in a few years at a firm at the very minimum before even thinking of applying to those sorts of jobs.
Thank you for the response--also really helpful! I'm not really looking for a science background so maybe this isn't right for me--the idea of the MHA is more of a possibility of getting more focused knowledge in the field before getting dumped into the job market than a normal JD would give in regards to healthcare policy.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by whatsyourdeal » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:03 pm

simplytea wrote:
whatsyourdeal wrote:I'm sure the additional degree in MPH or MHA would help in that it would give you further insight into the health field, however it is not necessary and the extra financial resources spent on the degree wouldn't be worth it.

To get your foot into healthcare law, it is absolutely necessary to have prior experience and some prior knowledge/ability to learn the ever evolving field.

Also, I cannot emphasize enough that networking in such a niche area can go a long way, especially if you are looking into gov't.

I'm currently in-house for a healthcare co., and had prior legal healthcare experience prior to and during law school.
This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for--thank you! What do you think are the best ways to get experience in the field during (or before) law school? I know I clearly won't get my dream job straight out of law school, but hopefully I can be closer towards my goal (besides just achieving the JD) than when I started.
Before law school- Look for legal assistant jobs with boutique healthcare firms, healthcare organizations (foundations, hospitals, health plans, etc.), gov't organizations, etc.

During law school- look for healthcare internships during summers. I found mine not through OCI, but during the school year through symplicity. join the ahla or csha (california) organizations and network. also, join your local bar organizations health care section if one exists.
underwood15 wrote:i work in the healthcare/pharma field and will be going to law school next year. i work with a lot of health care attorneys and many of them have jd/mphs. i have also grappled with this issue and think I will be pursuing a jd/mph but only because i want to have more of a science background and it only takes on extra semester for the program i would be in to get my mph. also, to get a job at a hospital or pharma company, you need to put in a few years at a firm at the very minimum before even thinking of applying to those sorts of jobs.


Typically true. To even set foot into a hospital or healthcare company, you usually need about 3-5 years of experience, minimum. However, there are exceptions, particularly if you have significant healthcare experience prior to and during law school.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by dixiecupdrinking » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:46 pm

My advice would be to identify the exact role, or range of roles, you'd like to be in before even applying to schools, then reach out and talk to as many people as you can who are currently in those roles.

It's tempting to think you can refine your goals in law school, but in practice it rarely works that way. You won't have enough time or opportunities while in school, and you need to be building the right kind of experience ASAP. For instance, your first good chance to get good experience will be 1L summer, and you'll have to interview at the start of your second semester. Your perspective at that point will be basically identical to what it is right now except you'll have taken civ pro and torts, which I assure you will not be enlightening about your career.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by NonTradHealthLaw » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:57 pm

I'm certainly biased because my MPH and prior health care experience helped me land biglaw. In every interview, my degree was circled on my resume.

Health seems to be one of those practice areas where accessory degrees do help. I'd probably assign greater value to an M(S)HA for firm/inhouse life while an MPH is better for government/policy. But, both teach many valuable healthcare principles that other doctrinal law classes do not touch. Can a person learn them without the specialization, of course. But, since health is a flavor of the month, an extra degree can be instrumental in showing a true interest.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:57 am

Thanks for all the great advice--I wish I could say that I have a plan now, but I still can't figure out if I should invest the time in the MHA or not.

Here are the pros and cons as I see it:

Pros:
Can be instrumental in showing interest
Gives some experience in the field
Could possibly set me above other candidates

Cons:
Probably an extra 30-40k
Might have to take GRE & apply to masters program separately
Might not really use degree

Can anyone add to this? Sorry I'm asking for so much :? but, again, I really appreciate any help you can give!

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by McAvoy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:13 am

simplytea wrote:Cons:
Probably an extra 30-40k in tuition
Takes away a full year of earning potential
Might have to take GRE & apply to masters program separately
Might not really use degree

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by timbs4339 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:18 pm

What you really want to ask yourself is whether the degree is going to be valuable without prior work experience (not a part-time school internship). Most of the posters are telling you that work experience is necessary. Anyone can add more letters to their name, but working in the field for a few years demonstrates commitment.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by BigZuck » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:49 pm

simplytea wrote:Thanks for all the great advice--I wish I could say that I have a plan now, but I still can't figure out if I should invest the time in the MHA or not.

Here are the pros and cons as I see it:

Pros:
Can be instrumental in showing interest
Gives some experience in the field
Could possibly set me above other candidates

Cons:
Probably an extra 30-40k
Might have to take GRE & apply to masters program separately
Might not really use degree

Can anyone add to this? Sorry I'm asking for so much :? but, again, I really appreciate any help you can give!
Almost everyone here is going to tell you it's a bad idea and don't do it. If you want to convince yourself that it is then fine, YOLO, but you're probably not going to convince TLS that it is a good idea or get TLS' stamp of approval.

Dual degrees are largely boomer flame based on the (largely false) notion that education provides opportunities (or, more precisely, more education provides more opportunities). Most graduate programs should not exist. They are just another way for fat cat boomers to suckle at the governmental teat and exploit younger generations for their own gain.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by DELG » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:00 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:My advice would be to identify the exact role, or range of roles, you'd like to be in before even applying to schools, then reach out and talk to as many people as you can who are currently in those roles.

It's tempting to think you can refine your goals in law school, but in practice it rarely works that way. You won't have enough time or opportunities while in school, and you need to be building the right kind of experience ASAP. For instance, your first good chance to get good experience will be 1L summer, and you'll have to interview at the start of your second semester. Your perspective at that point will be basically identical to what it is right now except you'll have taken civ pro and torts, which I assure you will not be enlightening about your career.
This.

As an aside, I always get the feeling people who think they want to do _____ Law, what they really want to do _____ business side and just don't understand what the lawyers in that industry are doing.

Because the law side is usually almost indistinguishable from all the other law jobs.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by FSK » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:07 pm

Will_McAvoy wrote:You need to get "top x" schools out of your head. That's a really bad way to make a decision. If you can't get into the T14 with a little money, or can't get into the ~T19 with serious money, go to your best local school if you can get close to a full ride, or don't go at all. Rankings don't matter at all, there are "national" schools, regional schools with national reputations, and local schools. Go to the one that gives you the best blend of employment prospects and scholarships that is in an area you have roots in or is in an area you want to be long-term.

If you're applying to jobs as a lawyer I don't know why they would care -- they probably want the best lawyer, regardless of whether they spent an extra year on a degree they'll never utilize in their legal work. If you want to do something that doesn't involve lawyering then get an MPH without the JD.
Egregious GW trolling.
Last edited by FSK on Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:07 pm

BigZuck wrote:Almost everyone here is going to tell you it's a bad idea and don't do it. If you want to convince yourself that it is then fine, YOLO, but you're probably not going to convince TLS that it is a good idea or get TLS' stamp of approval.

Dual degrees are largely boomer flame based on the (largely false) notion that education provides opportunities (or, more precisely, more education provides more opportunities). Most graduate programs should not exist. They are just another way for fat cat boomers to suckle at the governmental teat and exploit younger generations for their own gain.
First of all, I think you're getting the wrong idea. I'm generally here to put feelers out to see what opinions are out there, not to be told that dual degrees in general suck or not. I'm asking for specific information from people who work in the field or whatnot, not for a general approval of what I'm doing. You're right, YOLO. And my decision will only affect me. So in general, I'm just appreciating the range of information and opinions that are being given here, while not feeling positively or negatively towards any of them. When it comes down to it, I think I would clearly prefer to think that a dual degree is not necessary, because it saves me time and money and general pain. But I do want to make sure that I am properly informed as to the reality of the field, given that the JD market is saturated and will continue to be until long after my graduation.
DELG wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:My advice would be to identify the exact role, or range of roles, you'd like to be in before even applying to schools, then reach out and talk to as many people as you can who are currently in those roles.

It's tempting to think you can refine your goals in law school, but in practice it rarely works that way. You won't have enough time or opportunities while in school, and you need to be building the right kind of experience ASAP. For instance, your first good chance to get good experience will be 1L summer, and you'll have to interview at the start of your second semester. Your perspective at that point will be basically identical to what it is right now except you'll have taken civ pro and torts, which I assure you will not be enlightening about your career.
This.

As an aside, I always get the feeling people who think they want to do _____ Law, what they really want to do _____ business side and just don't understand what the lawyers in that industry are doing.

Because the law side is usually almost indistinguishable from all the other law jobs.
In regards to the above, I don't want to do the business side--I can assure you that. I also don't agree that law is all the same. But then, we all have our own opinions/experiences to speak to.

I think dixiecupdrinking is absolutely right. I have to figure out the specifics of what careers in health law interest me, but health law is a very broad field (as is every field of law), and it's definitely a good point that I won't know specifics after my first year. I also, unfortunately, don't have many contacts in the field (so maybe I'll shoot a few informational interview requests to some people).

Thanks to all who have already responded :) I am very grateful for the support.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by bjsesq » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:09 pm

I do healthcare stuff and that is all I do. A joint degree will do dick for you. Do well in law school and establish connections/display interest in the field immediately to work your way in.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:35 pm

bjsesq wrote:I do healthcare stuff and that is all I do. A joint degree will do dick for you. Do well in law school and establish connections/display interest in the field immediately to work your way in.
You know, funny enough, this is exactly the response I needed. :) From someone who works in the field and knows exactly what they're talking about. Thank you.

Well, I guess that solves that! :) Bahaha.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by McAvoy » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:01 pm

simplytea wrote:
DELG wrote:As an aside, I always get the feeling people who think they want to do _____ Law, what they really want to do _____ business side and just don't understand what the lawyers in that industry are doing.

Because the law side is usually almost indistinguishable from all the other law jobs.
In regards to the above, I don't want to do the business side--I can assure you that. I also don't agree that law is all the same. But then, we all have our own opinions/experiences to speak to.
:lol:

DELG I guess the KJD 0L who wants to go to a "top 75" law school knows more than you.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by simplytea » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:02 pm

Will_McAvoy wrote:
simplytea wrote:
DELG wrote:As an aside, I always get the feeling people who think they want to do _____ Law, what they really want to do _____ business side and just don't understand what the lawyers in that industry are doing.

Because the law side is usually almost indistinguishable from all the other law jobs.
In regards to the above, I don't want to do the business side--I can assure you that. I also don't agree that law is all the same. But then, we all have our own opinions/experiences to speak to.
:lol:

DELG I guess the KJD 0L who wants to go to a "top 75" law school knows more than you.

Oh sweetie, you're so funny. I work for Telecom lawyers, and before that I was a fed. The questions are because healthcare law is outside my realm of experience

In case you were wondering, congressional investigations are much different than Telecom law.
Last edited by simplytea on Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joint Degree in Health... something?

Post by DELG » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:06 pm

Telecom advisory is mostly like all the other advisory. Telecom deal work is mostly like other deal work. And that's what I was getting at. The business of the client doesn't matter much, if it's lit, or advisory, or bankruptcy, or real estate finance.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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