Michigan vs. Illinois Forum

[mw115]

I've got a damn respiratory virus and am in a shit mood today. I'm sorry for calling you an idiot. That was overboard. OP, I don't know what to tell you. I wanted to know more because I suspected this was the case. Illinois is likely not going to get you where you want to be, but Michigan has become one of the worst performing T14s and it's difficult to justify sticker there. Here are your two options, you go to Illinois without too much debt, but you only have a 25% chance of achieving your goals. Or you go to Michigan, have a much higher chance of reaching your goals, but will be crippled by debt and forced into certain jobs. You should retake and we all know you don't have any good enough excuse other than laziness, but since you're content to fuck yourself over, I'm going to say Michigan. You might be crushed with debt for a while, but at least you'll have a reasonable shot at your goals. It doesn't matter if you don't have much debt if you're not able to do what you want to do with your JD.

Sorry you have a respiratory virus, but you don't have to be such a dick. Sometimes people don't have time to retake, sometimes they are ready to get started with the second part of their life - it's not always laziness.

You also clearly have no idea what you are talking about - the Chicago legal market. You really think Michigan gives you a "much higher chance of achieving your goals"? If Illinois gives you a 25% chance at Chicago big law, that is about as good as Michigan is going to get you. Although UM might have a better "large law firm job rate" a lot of those grads are ending up in Detroit or Cleveland. My guess is that you'd still have to be top 1/3 to have a shot at Chicago big law from Michigan. For poos & giggles I did a search on the first 5 big Chicago firms that came to mind, and Illinois is about 1:1 with Michigan among their ranks in Chicago despite having smaller class sizes.

[The Dark Shepard]

Did you not apply to Northwestern?

[TheSpanishMain]

Don't do Michigan at sticker. That's a coin flip chance of being like mega screwed. If you really want to go T14 then re-take.

I would say Michigan at sticker gives you virtually 100% chance of being screwed, whether mega-screwed (big debt, no Big Law) or just moderately screwed (Big Law job you probably hate but are trapped in for years and years, living on ramen noodles in a studio apartment).

[rickgrimes69]

Your career goals say mich

The cost of mich says Illinois

Retake or reevaluate your career goals

[star fox]

Don't do Michigan at sticker. That's a coin flip chance of being like mega screwed. If you really want to go T14 then re-take.

I would say Michigan at sticker gives you virtually 100% chance of being screwed, whether mega-screwed (big debt, no Big Law) or just moderately screwed (Big Law job you probably hate but are trapped in for years and years, living on ramen noodles in a studio apartment).

Yeah very true.

[InTheHouse]

I've got a damn respiratory virus and am in a shit mood today. I'm sorry for calling you an idiot. That was overboard. OP, I don't know what to tell you. I wanted to know more because I suspected this was the case. Illinois is likely not going to get you where you want to be, but Michigan has become one of the worst performing T14s and it's difficult to justify sticker there. Here are your two options, you go to Illinois without too much debt, but you only have a 25% chance of achieving your goals. Or you go to Michigan, have a much higher chance of reaching your goals, but will be crippled by debt and forced into certain jobs. You should retake and we all know you don't have any good enough excuse other than laziness, but since you're content to fuck yourself over, I'm going to say Michigan. You might be crushed with debt for a while, but at least you'll have a reasonable shot at your goals. It doesn't matter if you don't have much debt if you're not able to do what you want to do with your JD.

Sorry you have a respiratory virus, but you don't have to be such a dick. Sometimes people don't have time to retake, sometimes they are ready to get started with the second part of their life - it's not always laziness.

You also clearly have no idea what you are talking about - the Chicago legal market. You really think Michigan gives you a "much higher chance of achieving your goals"? If Illinois gives you a 25% chance at Chicago big law, that is about as good as Michigan is going to get you. Although UM might have a better "large law firm job rate" a lot of those grads are ending up in Detroit or Cleveland. My guess is that you'd still have to be top 1/3 to have a shot at Chicago big law from Michigan.

This not true. You really think the grade cutoffs for Michigan and Illinois are the same? I work in DC, so its possible large firms in Chicago are just nuts.

For poos & giggles I did a search on the first 5 big Chicago firms that came to mind, and Illinois is about 1:1 with Michigan among their ranks in Chicago despite having smaller class sizes.

This fact that you think this supports your point is a little scary.

[BigZuck]

Is the OP even from the Midwest/have ties to Chicago? I missed that part. If not, isn't that going to hurt them even if they go to Illinois? I don't really know anything about that market but I thought I've heard it's both ties and grades sensitive so the OP might have to do really well at Illinois to have a shot.

Also, OP, didn't we go through this last cycle or am I thinking of someone else? Did you retake/reapply once already?

[bugsy33]

OP, go to whichever school has a better football team.

So obviously not Michigan, because they suck, and Ann Arbor is highly overrated (unless you love ugly chicks, hippies, and partying with kids from EMU and Washtenaw).

[yost]

OP, go to whichever school has a better football team.

So obviously not Michigan, because they suck, and Ann Arbor is highly overrated (unless you love ugly chicks, hippies, and partying with kids from EMU and Washtenaw).

Lol.

OP, don't go to Michigan at sticker. But also don't expect to get Biglaw from Illinois.

[mw115]

This not true. You really think the grade cutoffs for Michigan and Illinois are the same? I work in DC, so its possible large firms in Chicago are just nuts.

You work in DC. If someone comes to you top 40% from Michigan or top 25% from GW, which are you interviewing? In Dallas, I know for a fact that our firm prefers top 15-20% at SMU over top 30% at a lower T14, and most firms would reach further back in the SMU pool. In Houston our firm has similar grade cutoffs for UH. Grade cutoffs for Illinois in DC are going to be a lot different than grade cutoffs in Chicago, whereas they will probably be around the same for Michigan everywhere. Also, I gave about a 10% cushion to Michigan.

That it's about as common for people to go into Chicago big law from Illinois as Michigan doesn't support my point? My point is that being at Michigan might give you some better chance, but it's not large enough to support $150k of debt.

[InTheHouse]

That it's about as common for people to go into Chicago big law from Illinois as Michigan doesn't support my point?

Its also more common to enter Chicago Big Law from Illinois than Stanford.

My point is that being at Michigan might give you some better chance, but it's not large enough to support $150k of debt.

How do you know when its not clear that you know how much of a better chance Michigan offers over Illinois?

[mw115]

Because there's this thing called regionalism. It's why you see Northeastern grads in Boston firms, UGA grads in Atlanta firms, UH & SMU grads in Texas firms, Loyola grads in LA firms, and Santa Clara & Hastings grads in SV firms.

Sure, I don't know for sure, but neither does anyone else who doesn't work in Chicago. However, if your goal is specifically to go to Big Law only in Chicago it's not a stretch of the imagination to assume that its market operates like every other market - and most outside indications are that it does.

[metroidbum]

OP, go to whichever school has a better football team.

So obviously not Michigan, because they suck, and Ann Arbor is highly overrated (unless you love ugly chicks, hippies, and partying with kids from EMU and Washtenaw).

As mediocre as Michigan football was last year, they were still much better than Illinois.

As for the rest, whatever helps you live with the fact you had to settle for MSU . Anyone who went to school in EL can't say squat about other cities.


But OP, Illinois for free is TCR here. Michigan's big law+ big fed numbers are too shaky to justify sticker or near sticker.

[CTT]

When you look at the internal Michigan OCI hiring numbers, it becomes clear that you need about a 3.2 to have good big law prospects in Chicago. There are some firms that consistently hire at 3.1 or lower, but not many in Chicago. Realistically, I would say with good experience, that means you need to be top 75 percent at Michigan. Obviously, a pretty high number of Mich students are opting away from big law jobs and away from major cities altogether (reasons people choose Ann Arbor). If I were you, I would rather have the debt and a good shot at accomplishing my goals than be debt free and poor regardless.

[jbagelboy]

When you look at the internal Michigan OCI hiring numbers, it becomes clear that you need about a 3.2 to have good big law prospects in Chicago. There are some firms that consistently hire at 3.1 or lower, but not many in Chicago. Realistically, I would say with good experience, that means you need to be top 75 percent at Michigan. Obviously, a pretty high number of Mich students are opting away from big law jobs and away from major cities altogether (reasons people choose Ann Arbor). If I were you, I would rather have the debt and a good shot at accomplishing my goals than be debt free and poor regardless.

3.2 at mich (quite a bit below median) is a sketchy place for any firm work. Conservative ny bidding would be tcr at that point.

[CTT]

Maybe, and obviously it's a little hard to tell because the data is coming off of the old curve, and there's no way to know how much difference the new one will make. But, of the 33 firms that have made enough offers in recent years for the school to report the GPA offer distribution, a majority of the Chicago firms have a 25th percentile offer GPA below a 3.3 (including many highly regarded Vault 100 firms). When you consider that the firms are more likely to get 'yes' responses from the lower GPA offers, that means that at least historically, 3.2 has been a workable number for the Chicago market. It's a bit of a black box, but I think with his legit experience, the actual desire to work in a firm, and with it sounding like OP is getting into Mich. on his merits, he's highly likely to be just fine.

And anyway, it's not all about Chicago. I guess I'm pulling that from others' posts. New York is clearly an easier market to aim for.