Baylor v St. Marys v Maryland Forum

[A-Train]

Baylor 47K - 6K scholarship
St Mary's 32K - 13K scholarship
MD 35K - 6k for employer discount

Cost of living in Waco and San Antonio is about the same. MD is of course higher.
Have family and wife work considerations - but let's keep them out of the equation for the moment.

All things being equal I would like to graduate from a school I feel very proud of and that will open doors. No matter what I choose, barring epiphany/catastrophe, I will consider a transfer after year one. UT and GMU are my top choices (obviously didn't get into either one with an application).

Not waiting or retaking... this is the last year my '09 LSAT is valid.

My lean is Baylor right now, but Waco (the town) is shit, they do a quarter system (hard to time the xfer), and price - omg.
I think I'd be disappointed to graduate from St. Mary's, and their curve seems hard, making xfer more challenging.
I don't know what to do with Maryland.

Thoughts? I'd love to hear from graduates from any of the schools. Give a reason too, not just a simple vote for one of the three schools.
This is my first post here, so take it easy and keep the flames down please. I love it when people actually add to the conversation and don't detract with snark.

[Yanky91]

Baylor 47K - 6K scholarship
St Mary's 32K - 13K scholarship
MD 35K - 6k for employer discount

Cost of living in Waco and San Antonio is about the same. MD is of course higher.
Have family and wife work considerations - but let's keep them out of the equation for the moment.

All things being equal I would like to graduate from a school I feel very proud of and that will open doors. No matter what I choose, barring epiphany/catastrophe, I will consider a transfer after year one. UT and GMU are my top choices (obviously didn't get into either one with an application).

Not waiting or retaking... this is the last year my '09 LSAT is valid.

My lean is Baylor right now, but Waco (the town) is shit, they do a quarter system (hard to time the xfer), and price - omg.
I think I'd be disappointed to graduate from St. Mary's, and their curve seems hard, making xfer more challenging.
I don't know what to do with Maryland.

Thoughts? I'd love to hear from graduates from any of the schools. Give a reason too, not just a simple vote for one of the three schools.
This is my first post here, so take it easy and keep the flames down please. I love it when people actually add to the conversation and don't detract with snark.

What are your stats? I am very familiar with UMD and the area. It is a pretty good school for work in Maryland. Why can't you take the LSAT again? I am firm believer in taking the LSAT at least twice. If you have not taken it more than once, you should consider giving it another shot. There is a lot of risk going to any one of these schools. If you go to one of these schools, your best bet is to minimize your debt by getting a big scholarship. You can't do that without retaking. These schools are not worth those prices.

[TooOld4This]

Non-snark and dead serious.

Going to any of the law schools you have listed at those prices would be an incredibly selfish and irresponsible decision. It is bad enough when young, single people handcuff themselves to a path that is an needlessly uphill climb with low chances of success. When people with families do it, it is tragic.

Transferring is unlikely to happen, and if you do transfer you would be paying sticker price at schools not worth sticker. Employment outcomes at the schools you are considering do not justify the price you are going to be paying. And this just isn't your money and future you are gambling with -- it is your family's.

If you wouldn't roll into Vegas and drop all the money you will spend on one of these law schools on one spin of te roulette wheel, retake and reconsider.

You asked us to go easy, but the decisions you are contemplating are so monumentally unwise, that sugar coating it would be a disservice to you.

[A-Train]

Wow. Glowing response in 20 minutes.
Baylor and Maryland are t50 schools, and uh, t50 appears good to me. What am I missing?

St. Mary's rank sucks, but again, for 15k a year, that's why I am considering. They know that, and I know law schools are glorified moneygrubbing banks looking to fill seats, but maybe I'm their huckleberry for a cheap ride and swallow my pride. I could pay for St. Mary's out of pocket debt-free in three years. I could probably hustle up MD for just under 20k and do the same.

159/2.9
Yes I slacked as an undergrad, spare me the beat down.
No chance I am taking the LSAT again. I'd rather pay 20k extra per year than do that. Don't even discuss that (what or why) because it's off the table.

I don't feel like I have to be t14 or bust, and I'd be more than happy to pay sticker at UT or GMU, but do you really think that getting a JD from any of these schools would keep me from getting a job for 75k+ right out of college, even if it is prosecutor in nowheresville or a corporate rubber-stamper? Not to sound cocky, but honestly, I can make 75K now! My wife just hired a non-degreed secretary for 60k, so I mean, it's not like the money's not out there. At risk of sounding idealistic - for me personally - I want to be able to do something I enjoy, excel at, and can use to give back.

Felt semi proud with these schools. I know I'm gonna have to work my ass off so I need to feel some element of pride to keep me motivated. Don't mind getting shot down a little on this forum, and I can handle the truth, but I need some more evidence that any of these schools would be the lifelong epic fails that you describe.

[BigZuck]

Wow. Glowing response in 20 minutes.
Baylor and Maryland are t50 schools, and uh, t50 appears good to me. What am I missing?

St. Mary's rank sucks, but again, for 15k a year, that's why I am considering. They know that, and I know law schools are glorified moneygrubbing banks looking to fill seats, but maybe I'm their huckleberry for a cheap ride and swallow my pride. I could pay for St. Mary's out of pocket debt-free in three years. I could probably hustle up MD for just under 20k and do the same.

159/2.9
Yes I slacked as an undergrad, spare me the beat down.
No chance I am taking the LSAT again. I'd rather pay 20k extra per year than do that. Don't even discuss that (what or why) because it's off the table.

I don't feel like I have to be t14 or bust, and I'd be more than happy to pay sticker at UT or GMU, but do you really think that getting a JD from any of these schools would keep me from getting a job for 75k+ right out of college, even if it is prosecutor in nowheresville or a corporate rubber-stamper? Not to sound cocky, but honestly, I can make 75K now! My wife just hired a non-degreed secretary for 60k, so I mean, it's not like the money's not out there. At risk of sounding idealistic - for me personally - I want to be able to do something I enjoy, excel at, and can use to give back.

Felt semi proud with these schools. I know I'm gonna have to work my ass off so I need to feel some element of pride to keep me motivated. Don't mind getting shot down a little on this forum, and I can handle the truth, but I need some more evidence that any of these schools would be the lifelong epic fails that you describe.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

We can't predict the future. You might go to Saint Mary's and grow up to be the next Ruth Bader Ginsburg for all we know. But more likely than not you will end up in a ton of debt and have a shot at jobs that pay like 40-50K as an absolute best case scenario.

[rickgrimes69]

You're making $75k right now? And you want to leave that so you can pay $100k for a 50/50 shot at making $50k?

I just have one question: why?

[Crowing]

Wow. Glowing response in 20 minutes.
Baylor and Maryland are t50 schools, and uh, t50 appears good to me. What am I missing?

What you're missing is that USNWR rank doesn't get you a job:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/baylor/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maryland/2013/

Why MD anyway? You have any ties there, or any desire to work there?

[A-Train]

St Mary's or MD means no debt. Baylor means nearly 100k in debt which is why I am apprehensive.

Have family in DC Metro and could go back and live/work. Not sold on living/working in any one place forever.

Not to sound cocky, and heckle if you want, but making 50k is a joke and I will never buy that from anyone. I made 40k out of high school two decades years ago. My buddy is rubber stamping for a corporation right now in a back office (and hating it, as it is a long way from his law school dreams) for $40 an hour. Even if he is 1099ed, that's about 60k+ a year.

If jobs out of law school suck that bad, why are 40k people attending 180+ schools this year? I'm down for "the masses are asses" but not to that extreme tune. There are not that many 1% mommy and daddies. Again, I feel that something empirical is missing from the equation. Maybe it's that I discount the importance of a 20% unemployment rate out of St Mary's and MD law school. Yes that's one out of five, but I'll be one of the other four (as will most, obviously).

I like the comment that USNWR doesn't get me a job, especially since rankings vary every year, but I do think prestige and connections go a long way in any business setting - hence my reference. I know first hand, the old boys club is alive and well in Texas.

Appreciate the live dialog. Rest assured I am reading what you are referencing. Keep it coming.

Also, noob question, is there a way to check your profiles to see if you responders are graduates or students, from what school, current occupation etc... just to give me a POR?

[deadpanic]

This has to be a flame.

Coming out of any of these schools you legitimately have about a 50% shot at a job making 50k. You should keep your 75k job. Kids from these schools would KILL to make that kind of money. Laugh all you want. That's the reality of the market right now. Go and come back in 3 years and let us know how it's going. It is more likely than not a bad decision.

I'm a practicing lawyer and know a handful of Baylor grads--some are unemployed. The others work in small firms or as ADAs making 40-50k.

I wouldn't recommend any but if you must go...if you can graduate debt free from MD and want to practice in MD then go there. Just know that you should be going because you really want to become a lawyer NOT for money. Because you won't make it out of these schools.

[rickgrimes69]

OP, look at this graph:



This is the salary distribution curve of 2012 grads. Legal salaries are highly bimodal. The spike on the right side is for salaries offered by Biglaw/Midlaw firms, which you have no reasonable chance of obtaining from any of these schools. The spike on the left side is where you're more likely to end up. Since TX is a pretty low COL area, you'll probably only find a job on the lower end of that left spike - roughly $45-50k. It's not only a possibility that you'll graduate from law school making substantially less money, it's almost certain.

Even if you attend for free, it's not really free, as you must consider the opportunity cost of 3 years of lost wages which for you is ~$225,000. And if you strike out (which has a ~40-50% chance of occurring) you can't rely on your old job welcoming you back.

We aren't trying to be snarky or misrepresent the situation. Those are the statistics. Take 'em or leave 'em, but either way, you should know what you're getting into.

[TooOld4This]

Why do you think you will be able to get UMD down to under 20k?

Are you factoring in 3% tuition increases?

Are you factoring in the opportunity cost of three years lost salary?

Are you factoring in 6.8% interest for any loans you are taking out?

Have you considered that at UMD:
Less than 50% of 2013 graduates had jobs as attorneys?
Of the employed 2012 grads, only 80% reported their salary (high salary graduates typically have higher reporting rates, so you should make the assumption that those that did not report have salaries on the low end). The average *employed 2012 grad who reported their salary* made $60,000.

Have you considered that at St Mary's:
20% of 2013 graduates were unemployed?
Of those that are employed as attorneys, the vast majority are employed at firms with 10 or fewer attorneys. These firms are generally high risk, low pay opportunities. Only 11% of 2012 graduates shared their salary and that median salary was 50,000.

Have you considered that at Baylor:
13.6% of 2013 grads were unemployed.
Only 63% of 2012 graduates shared salary. The median salary for this group was $60,000.

So why do you think that these are good places to spend three years and $60,000-120,000?

[cotiger]

Here is the salary information specifically for Baylor: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... more/2012/

Note that the median salary for those who went into private practice is $65,000. Then note that 40% of those who were in 2-10 person firms didn't respond, which would drag the overall median down further, as those jobs pay around $50,000.

[Crowing]

If jobs out of law school suck that bad, why are 40k people attending 180+ schools this year? I'm down for "the masses are asses" but not to that extreme tune. There are not that many 1% mommy and daddies. Again, I feel that something empirical is missing from the equation. Maybe it's that I discount the importance of a 20% unemployment rate out of St Mary's and MD law school. Yes that's one out of five, but I'll be one of the other four (as will most, obviously).

Concrete data on outcomes of law school graduates hasn't been available until recent years. The market was much better pre-2009 also. Since the transparency movement has gained steam and the economy tanked, enrollment has dropped drastically. There are still plenty of people making poor personal decisions, but there's definitely a lagging effect on data translating into real-life decisions. Plus cognitive dissonance is powerful.

The pure unemployment rate isn't what you should focus on because e.g. graduates working in part-time or non-legal jobs are still going to be listed as generally employed. The long-term, full-time, bar-passage required jobs is more informative of true outcomes. And even that isn't really helpful for you, considering that you are giving up a 75k/year job to go to law school. The above post on bimodal salary distribution is illustrative of the reality of law school; at a school like Baylor (7.4% large firm score) probably less than 10% of students are graduating into jobs with higher pay than your current one.

I like the comment that USNWR doesn't get me a job, especially since rankings vary every year, but I do think prestige and connections go a long way in any business setting - hence my reference. I know first hand, the old boys club is alive and well in Texas.

Prestige certainly matters a great deal to the legal profession, which is why top schools generally provide better outcomes for their graduates. But to the extent that it matters, it's encapsulated in the hard data about employment outcomes.

Also, noob question, is there a way to check your profiles to see if you responders are graduates or students, from what school, current occupation etc... just to give me a POR?

You can click the "profile" button at the bottom left of posts to see this kind of information if the user chooses to list it in their profile.

[BigZuck]

I just wanted to say that this thread is a perfect example of why TLS is so awesome. The OP came out half-cocked and quickly got twaty toward everyone and still tons of great information conveyed by very smart, level-headed posters who are here to help dispute the OPs horrible attitude. Good job bros, I really mean that.

OP- I sincerely wish you the best of luck. You have been given some great information/resources ITT and its up to you to utilize them or ignore them if you so choose.

[A-Train]

Let me first say, I am not upset nor do I have a shitty attitude, and if I have come off as confrontational, that is not my intent. I am thrilled with any solid info that helps me make a more intelligent life changing decision, and so I am grateful for all the comments and help here! Genuinely, TY!

After reviewing what everyone submitted, it would really appear that unless I could secure a seat at a t14 (to increase the odds of a biglaw gig), or I am content to make around 50k (at least for starters), then there is no financial incentive to attend law school, especially if I am are already in a semi-stable middle class career.
Am I correct that broadly this is the general consensus?

If I were to attend a t50 (like MD or Baylor), it appears clear that I would have to be an incredible standout to make sure I didn't end up on the wrong end of the 50% unemployed, or the sizeable percentage underpaid/underemployed.

On a personal note, I am ready to press the reset button on my career and am okay with a cut-in-pay for some period of time. The intangibles like potentially working in a small practice, or my own practice later on, and the opportunity to do some pro bono "social work" along the way, actually does appeal to me and is part of the drive to go to law school on the whole. It's not all about money for me, and I am not defined by my paycheck, but I must work "happy."

That said, I don't want a six figure loan haunting me for 20 years while I struggle to pay my rent a find stable employment. Completely agree that "cognitive dissonance is powerful," so I am trying to clear the cobwebs so as not to be overcome by that power.

Facts and figures here have been enlightening. This decision has been paralyzing for months, and I am struggling with it above all else.

Last separate issue - and I am sincere in my desire to evaluate: Why do so many people attend these low end schools and "pin a $20 on their shirt and wish them the best"? Roulette, stupidity, lazy/unrealistic, or again - is there something missing from the equation? For Baylor especially, it just seems crazy gutsy to spend 50k a year going to school, trusting that you'll be the top 5% snowflake, in school already filled with equally driven standouts, believing that things will "all work out" when the facts seem to paint a MUCH grimmer picture.
...And that's just for those that actually get in - most schools turn down 9 applicants for every 1 they let in. Sincerely, what are these hundreds of thousands of applicants missing?

[paayter]

post sounds like a flame. either way..ne scholarship under 10k is a joke. there is no such thing as " prestige" other than top 14. every regional school looks prestigious to townies in that state

[TooOld4This]

It doesn't have to be T14 or bust. I am all for betting on yourself. But don't strap on the extra weight of high cost and no concrete plan in the process. Retake and get full tuition scholarships. Lay the groundwork for what you are going to when you graduate before you start. And be ready to cut your losses and drop out after your first year if it doesn't go well.

Know what you want to do. Lay the ground work for that before you begin. Limit your debt. Have a realistic plan b.

[killer133]

Very much sound like a flame, but I'll give benefit of the doubt.

If you are truly making 75K right now, DO NOT GO TO THESE SCHOOLS!

The only schools I would say you should even consider is T14 + strong regionals (UT I'm assuming you are in Texas, if not for example Emory for ATL, Fordham for NYC, WUSTL for St Louis, USC for LA, you get the idea) where you are right now. Exception would be that you REALLY want to do some kind of public interest minded legal work (ex. ADA or PD in an infamous county, or not for profit org) which pays less than $50K/yr because you WOULD LOVE TO DO the work itself. Otherwise, you have ABSOLUTELY no financial reason to attend these schools. More than likely, you would waste your 3 yrs or time and money and go back to your old job.

Unless you want those jobs I mentioned out of law school, don't go to these schools at the current price. Either just enjoy your current job or RETAKE the LSAT and go to UT Austin.

[killer133]

Very much sound like a flame, but I'll give benefit of the doubt.

If you are truly making 75K right now, DO NOT GO TO THESE SCHOOLS!

The only schools I would say you should even consider is T14 + strong regionals (UT I'm assuming you are in Texas, if not for example Emory for ATL, Fordham for NYC, WUSTL for St Louis, USC for LA, you get the idea) where you are right now. Exception would be that you REALLY want to do some kind of public interest minded legal work (ex. ADA or PD in an infamous county, or not for profit org) which pays less than $50K/yr because you WOULD LOVE TO DO the work itself. Otherwise, you have ABSOLUTELY no financial reason to attend these schools. More than likely, you would waste your 3 yrs or time and money and go back to your old job.

Unless you want those jobs I mentioned out of law school, don't go to these schools at the current price. Either just enjoy your current job or RETAKE the LSAT and go to UT Austin.

On a personal note, I am ready to press the reset button on my career and am okay with a cut-in-pay for some period of time. The intangibles like potentially working in a small practice, or my own practice later on, and the opportunity to do some pro bono "social work" along the way, actually does appeal to me and is part of the drive to go to law school on the whole. It's not all about money for me, and I am not defined by my paycheck, but I must work "happy."

Last separate issue - and I am sincere in my desire to evaluate: Why do so many people attend these low end schools and "pin a $20 on their shirt and wish them the best"? Roulette, stupidity, lazy/unrealistic, or again - is there something missing from the equation? For Baylor especially, it just seems crazy gutsy to spend 50k a year going to school, trusting that you'll be the top 5% snowflake, in school already filled with equally driven standouts, believing that things will "all work out" when the facts seem to paint a MUCH grimmer picture.
...And that's just for those that actually get in - most schools turn down 9 applicants for every 1 they let in. Sincerely, what are these hundreds of thousands of applicants missing?

1. Some time -> Could be forever, you can't count on making more later down the road.

2. I wonder this myself, why are there so many dumb fucks in this world? I don't know.

[PepperJack]

Whatever you did to make 40k/year with an HS diploma - the reality is that if you have hustle, can get along with people and can build shit/are good at something/can market then, yeah, you can make 40k/yr. The fallacy is that these skills + some JD will automatically lead to different outcomes. When people have a real legal issue or need a lawyer they're going to someone with a big name. The bar also sets certain fees so you can't get away with charging 1/2 price to make a living. So much of the "business end" of it all is so strictly regulated by the ABA to ensure the boy's club gets theirs that it's nearly impossible to come in and do well in the market.

It's also important to consider that at over 100k debt, the clock will quickly tick on how long you have to make bank. It's exceedingly unlikely. Additionally, if you'd rather throw away 60k + interest than retake the LSAT, you have to realize how exceedingly unlikely it is you're going to have the hustle and delayed gratification neurological makeup to do well enough to transfer.

I personally have no issue with you ruining your life or the lives of your family. Your wife chose to marry you and if she's standing by and not researching it, then there's no crime in Darwinism playing out how it's supposed to play out. It's a shame for the children, but the hope is if you're impoverished you would have the decency to explain that it's not that the world is a terrible and unforgiving place, but that you made a bad financial decision. This might ultimately be a positive for your children. Of course, if it does get difficult the hope would be that you would have family members who could help raise them if need be. The important thing should be getting that sallie mae money to go learn the law. Many people leave their families for gin and hookers, but why do that when you could leave them for the law?

It is sad to see posts like this, and in 20 years from now there's a very good chance that the prospect of people shelling out six figures + interest for schools with 30-40% chances at a 40k salary will be remembered as worse than having a parent who is a drug addict or walks out. The bottom line is this is non-dischargeable debt, and when it doesn't lead to a job is arguably worse than having a parent who is addicted to the rock. While it's tragic for kids to grow up around that, it makes many children less likely to touch drugs while children shouldn't necessarily be afraid of touching education, but only afraid of not researching their purchasing decisions. I think OP may also be overlooking how difficult it might be to get back the same hustle when he looks through the looking lens, and realizes he's fucked. Many people lose their hustle in this situation, and become passive and withdrawn.

[Nebby]

Don't go to law school thinking you will transfer. That's a rule.

[cron1834]

Lots of people are either a) dumb or b) come from rich families. Those are the primary reasons why folks continue to attend terrible schools with terrible debts. Unless you're either a or b, don't do it.

[BVest]

All things being equal I would like to graduate from a school I feel very proud of and that will open doors.

Good thinking . . .

No matter what I choose, barring epiphany/catastrophe, I will consider a transfer after year one. UT and GMU are my top choices (obviously didn't get into either one with an application).

. . . to very bad thinking in one sentence.

Not waiting or retaking... this is the last year my '09 LSAT is valid.

I can understand this sentiment, and won't get on the retake train for you.

My lean is Baylor right now, but Waco (the town) is shit, they do a quarter system (hard to time the xfer), and price - omg.

Don't go to a school from which you intend to transfer. As far as the town, there are worse places to live, and your social life will be spent with law school classmates, so it doesn't matter that much where you are.

I think I'd be disappointed to graduate from St. Mary's . . .

Then don't go. Period.

. . . and their curve seems hard, making xfer more challenging.

(a) Their curve is hard because it's designed to take away that remarkably stingy $13k they've offered you.
(b) I'll avoid sounding like a broken record about transferring and just point out that's not how transferring works. It's based on class rank, not raw GPA.

I don't know what to do with Maryland.

You got me. ♪ ♫ One of these things is not like the other.♩ ♬

[bizzike]

Sincerely, what are these hundreds of thousands of applicants missing?

How does rent a center stay in business charging 3k for a tv that costs 800? They're uninformed and uneducated. In the end, it's about prestige. People see attorneys and think of every television show with attorneys. In the same way that every college athlete thinks they're going to the NFL. The difference here is that you're taking out six figure debt to ultimately make less than you do now.

Let's say you hustle for 5 years and work your way up to making 90k. You'll still have a butt ton of debt and have sacrificed an opportunity cost. In those 3 years at your current job you'd probably progress to 85-90k and have NO DEBT. Does "prestige" matter that much to you?

[downinDtown]

I'll just focus on Baylor and St. Mary's:

Only go to Baylor IF: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... lit=baylor
--> and I'm assuming the cost figures you listed are annual, so 150K for a Baylor degree where you have a 75% chance of taking home LESS than ~$65,000 after taxes. That means a high portion of your annual salary (if you're employed) gets eaten up by debt payments.

Do NOT go to St. Mary's unless 1) it's entirely free, 2) you're already living in San Antonio, and 3) you're okay with not getting a legal job, if you get a job at all. San Antonio is a small, insular market and St. Mary's can't stack up against UT and other candidates from Texas schools. Of the 9 Texas schools, St. Mary's is in the same TTTT bottom bucket as Thurgood Marshall and Texas A&M (TexWes).

So if you want to live in Texas, follow this guide:

UT >>>>>>> SMU (for Dallas) / UH (for Houston) >>>> Baylor / Texas Tech >> South Texas >>>>>>>> TTTTs

And saying you can't retake because your LSAT is going to expire is like saying you have to eat all the crappy, disgusting food in your fridge because it's about to go bad. You definitely have a choice in the matter. Study up, improve your score, improve the schools you can go to, improve your scholarship amounts, and improve your post-graduate opportunities. A retake in your case, especially if you want better opportunities in TX is well worth the TENS of thousands you can save WHILE improving your chances of getting legal work.