Top Law Schools

Honest question. I keep going over their ABA employment reports for the last couple years and they seem on par with the rest of the 35-50 schools. Yet I am hearing nothing but hate and "STAY AWAY AT ALL COSTS". I really don't understand. Just looking for a serious explanation here by someone who actually has some authority over the subject (practicing attorney, recruiter, alumni) and preferably not looking to hear from any other 0Ls or t14 prestige chasers.


Edit: to be fair, the admissions office did basically tell me to f*ck off today when I tried to set up a meeting to have a conversation with them about the school, even after explaining that I am an admitted student trying to make a choice :\ However, I can deal with jerks if it still means getting a job afterwords.

1. It's expensive and does not give out many 1/2+ tuition scholarships (realistically American can only be justified if someone is receiving a full tuition scholarship).
2. It's employment scores are middling (only about half of its grads get full time jobs as lawyers 9 months after graduation).
3. It's in one of the most competitive legal markets in the country.
4. It's something like the 3rd best school in the metro area (which gets worse if you factor in schools from nearby VA) and that doesn't even take into account top schools that have reach into DC (e.g. the T14 but more specifically HYS).

So why is it worse than schools with comparable employment stats? Mainly because it costs ~50k/year and only about 2% of its students get scholarships greater than 25k/year. Some might also argue that you're better off at a school that is top in its area (e.g. Iowa) than at a school which is middle/bottom in its area (e.g. American) even if their employment outcomes are statistically similar.

BigJimboOrleans wrote:Honest question. I keep going over their ABA employment reports for the last couple years and they seem on par with the rest of the 35-50 schools. Yet I am hearing nothing but hate and "STAY AWAY AT ALL COSTS". I really don't understand. Just looking for a serious explanation here by someone who actually has some authority over the subject (practicing attorney, recruiter, alumni) and preferably not looking to hear from any other 0Ls or t14 prestige chasers.


Edit: to be fair, the admissions office did basically tell me to f*ck off today when I tried to set up a meeting to have a conversation with them about the school, even after explaining that I am an admitted student trying to make a choice :\ However, I can deal with jerks if it still means getting a job afterwords.

It's in DC, the toughest market in the country, where it is in direct competition with three bigger name DC-area schools (GULC, UVA, GW) and grads from every single T-14.

The employment stats are actually worse than most of their "peer" schools. Their three year employment average is something like 38%. Just because they broke 40% in the latest round of ABA data doesn't mean they've redeemed themselves.

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It also ranks highly in specialty rankings, which are a specifically heinous element of the sales pitch. Especially when coupled with the DC location you get a lot of international law special snowflakes.

It's really expensive, is stingy with scholarships, and is in a very competitive legal market with multiple better schools. What else do you need?

They really market themselves as being the top place for people who want to save the world and stop genocide, but in reality they do little to support that reality and leave people with crippling debt and no job prospects in the field.

NYC2012 wrote:I think another reason is they let their median LSAT plummet so they could still have a large class, even when most of their grads aren't getting jobs. The true mark of a TTT.

Sounds like HasTTTTings of the east. Actually, American did that first so I guess HasTTTTings is the American of the west.

this gon be good

Don't fall into the American trap. They were my first acceptance and I felt pretty good about them knowing only their ranking and speciality rankings from last yr. Then I did a bit of research. It's one thing to go to a middle of the pack school on a big scholarship with OK job placement. The more you look the more you realize American is a TTT in disguise. Horrible prospects of being hired as a lawyer (less than 40% last year) notoriously stingy with scholarships (offered me 5k a year and refused to negotiate with higher ranked full scholarship), and is in a ridiculously tough market. I'm sometimes wary of the advice on TLS but the American criticism is 100% deserved.

What are the school funded jobs though?

worldtraveler wrote:What are the school funded jobs though?

Since DC is flooded with recent grads of much higher-ranked law schools working for peanuts or quite literally for free at various government/PI positions, you can be pretty sure that American's school-funded jobs aren't exactly what you would call real. Note that this year American learned from its past mistakes and made the majority of these "jobs" full-time/license required, all the better to confuse people who don't look at employment stats closely.

American remains the trappiest of trap schools, as evidenced by the OP.

All of you seem to have the same theme that the employment stats are "lies" or faked in some way. Could you provide any evidence/info on this? I'm really down to the wire now choosing between there and UMaryland. End goal is to work for Gov/Sci (NIST/FDA/ETC) in DC/MD area (not baltimore)

BigJimboOrleans wrote:All of you seem to have the same theme that the employment stats are "lies" or faked in some way. Could you provide any evidence/info on this? I'm really down to the wire now choosing between there and UMaryland. End goal is to work for Gov/Sci (NIST/FDA/ETC) in DC/MD area (not baltimore)

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/american/2013/

BigJimboOrleans wrote:All of you seem to have the same theme that the employment stats are "lies" or faked in some way. Could you provide any evidence/info on this? I'm really down to the wire now choosing between there and UMaryland. End goal is to work for Gov/Sci (NIST/FDA/ETC) in DC/MD area (not baltimore)

Definitely retake the LSAT.

BigJimboOrleans wrote:All of you seem to have the same theme that the employment stats are "lies" or faked in some way. Could you provide any evidence/info on this? I'm really down to the wire now choosing between there and UMaryland. End goal is to work for Gov/Sci (NIST/FDA/ETC) in DC/MD area (not baltimore)

Seriously? American's statistics show that it ranks 174th out of 201 ABA-accredited law schools in regard to how many graduates got legal jobs, when one excludes the 7% of the class in law-school funded "jobs." More than a fifth of the class was completely unemployed nine months after graduation. These are by far the worst employment stats of any comparably-ranked school. How did you manage to conclude that those stats are similar to those of most schools ranked in the bottom half of the top 50?

Paul Campos wrote:

BigJimboOrleans wrote:All of you seem to have the same theme that the employment stats are "lies" or faked in some way. Could you provide any evidence/info on this? I'm really down to the wire now choosing between there and UMaryland. End goal is to work for Gov/Sci (NIST/FDA/ETC) in DC/MD area (not baltimore)

Seriously? American's statistics show that it ranks 174th out of 201 ABA-accredited law schools in regard to how many graduates got legal jobs, when one excludes the 7% of the class in law-school funded "jobs." More than a fifth of the class was completely unemployed nine months after graduation. These are by far the worst employment stats of any comparably-ranked school. How did you manage to conclude that those stats are similar to those of most schools ranked in the bottom half of the top 50?

Exactly, this is what I WANT to know, but I have no clue where you are getting that data.

Look at the ABA data: http://www.wcl.american.edu/career/stats.cfm. 2013 PDF.

The "real lawyer jobs" are the 231 full-time, long-term, JD-required jobs. Subtract the 37 funded by the school, because you know its not a real job if your school pays for it. That's common sense. Out of 507 grads, that leaves 38% with a real lawyer job.

Compare the same stat for GMU: http://www.law.gmu.edu/career/employment_information

130 - 4 out of 255 = 49%.

Mason is also generally ranked at the bottom of the T50, and its tuition is half as much in state.

BigJimboOrleans wrote:All of you seem to have the same theme that the employment stats are "lies" or faked in some way. Could you provide any evidence/info on this? I'm really down to the wire now choosing between there and UMaryland. End goal is to work for Gov/Sci (NIST/FDA/ETC) in DC/MD area (not baltimore)

Definitely retake for those career goals. And the fact that you seem very skeptical about the potential exaggeration of employment stats says you need to do more research before you make a decision this big.

BigJimboOrleans wrote:All of you seem to have the same theme that the employment stats are "lies" or faked in some way. Could you provide any evidence/info on this? I'm really down to the wire now choosing between there and UMaryland. End goal is to work for Gov/Sci (NIST/FDA/ETC) in DC/MD area (not baltimore)

NIST? Really?

InTheHouse wrote:

BigJimboOrleans wrote:All of you seem to have the same theme that the employment stats are "lies" or faked in some way. Could you provide any evidence/info on this? I'm really down to the wire now choosing between there and UMaryland. End goal is to work for Gov/Sci (NIST/FDA/ETC) in DC/MD area (not baltimore)

NIST? Really?

Do they even have counsel? I get the feeling OP is a troll. We've given him the data in this thread, the straight ABA data. Someone even made a snarky photoshop of it earlier. I'm not sure what else Big Jim wants.

I'm definitely considering just retaking and maybe getting an MS in the meantime. Yes, NIST does hire JD (I check usajobs.gov almost daily looking at the jobs I hope to get) and they go up to GS-15 (~$149k). I honestly do appreciate all of the clear answers. I wasn't trying to be an ass when I questioned the statistics - I'm a research oriented student of science, I like to see the evidence and source. Without a doubt I am reevaluating my options now.

Out of 203 ABA law schools, American's percentage of graduates who have long term bar passage required jobs not funded by the school is something like #175 of the 203 ABA schools.

Check out http://www.lawschooltransparency.com, which analyzes the ABA data.


And if by peer schools you mean Southwestern, Capital, Northern Kentucky, and Valparaiso, then you have a valid point.