What is the difference between the T14s? Forum

[Chrstgtr]

So after reading a lot on TLS the consensus seems to be (for most people's general biglaw anywhere goal) that absent HYS and to a lesser extent CCN the T14s are all the same and that you should attend whichever school offers you the most money. Yet these schools do not offer aid equally across themselves, in particular the T10s are generally stingier than the lower T14s and CCN are certainly stingier than the mid-lower T14s. So if this is the case why isn't there parity among all non-HYS T14s? For example, NYU, a CCN, has extremely similar employment outcomes compared to Northwestern, a lower T14, with regard to each school's biglaw+clerkship percentages. Yet, many people at NYU readily pay sticker despite holding an acceptance from Northwestern and many people at Northwestern with scholarship money don't even hold an admissions offer from NYU. Given their relatively similar employment outcomes, why would anyone ever not pick Northwestern? Furthermore, why would someone pick a mid T14 over a lower T14 with money especially when you could attend a lower T14 like Northwestern (for corporate) or GULC (for PI/Gov) in an actual city unlike UVA or UM? Are all non-HYS T14s destined for parity or am I vastly overestimating theses schools employment numbers (Northwestern in particular which regularly is closer to NYU at around 7 and as high as 2nd in 2007 before the crash)?

[Elston Gunn]

Your problem is your basic premise that 0Ls make their school decisions more or less solely based on employment prospects. Schools that are harder to get into/ranked higher = more "prestigious" = more desirable for many 0Ls, even if they won't get you a better job. So the less "prestigious" T14s have to offer money to entice them.

The other flaw is that you assume GULC is on par with the other non T-6/7 T-14s, but it's not.

[jbagelboy]

Another flaw is taking LST and ABA data entirely on it's face: then Yale would be a weaker choice ceteris paribus than UPenn. But this is not the case because it does not account for placement power at a particular place in the class.

I don't like getting bogged down in drivel about self selection. But the Northwestern v NYU paradigm presents an example of one school with definite stronger placement power into the top NY firms than another despite facially similar employment numbers. It is easier for someone in a particular class rank at NYU to hit a V10 than a comparable candidate from Northwestern. And it is probably safer to be a little below median at NYU than NU, just as it's probably better to be in the bottom quarter at Harvard than Columbia (although it's possible to strike out or get a biglaw job from either in that range depending on interviewing). Outside of biglaw, HYS and then to a lesser degree CC(N?) make applicants more competitive for top fellowships and public interest positions, which are not all created equal.

That being said, NU does a terrific job employing its graduates in corporate positions, either law or business, and it's not worth much less than NYU.

[IAFG]

CCN legitimately is worth a bit more (in placement safety) than MVPBDCN, but in my opinion MVPBDCN are too similar in placement power to distinguish.

[09042014]

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Fucking LOL

[Chrstgtr]

Agreed that GULC isn't on the same level as the other T14s in terms of placement and that it probably only retains its position in the T14 over a grouping with UCLA, Vandy, etc. due to its lay prestige and ability to project further than those other schools.

But with regard to Northwestern and NYU again, isn't its placement power at top NYC firms just an example of selection bias. NU grads definitely have a proclivity towards Chicago that doesn't exist anywhere else in the T14 with the possible exception of UChicago. I agree that NYU does have marginally better employment outcomes immediately after graduation but a lot of that is simply due to that geographic bias (not the PI vs Biglaw bias that typically surrounds NYU discussions since I believe that is a wash in comparison to NU due to the large NU JD/MBA class that tanks NU's employment scores). Also if you look at mid-career earning for those in the private sector NU actually beats NYU (and many other schools --LinkRemoved-- ) which aligns with the fact that when you count the number of partners at top firms the Chicago schools both U Chicago, which ranked first, and NU, which ranked in the top 4 behind only UVA, HLS, and UC, do astoundingly well.

It just seems to me that there is a huge NYC and "prestige" bias that doesn't justify the perceived gap between the T14s outside of HYS.

[manu6926]

...

[IAFG]

Agreed that GULC isn't on the same level as the other T14s in terms of placement and that it probably only retains its position in the T14 over a grouping with UCLA, Vandy, etc. due to its lay prestige and ability to project further than those other schools.

But with regard to Northwestern and NYU again, isn't its placement power at top NYC firms just an example of selection bias. NU grads definitely have a proclivity towards Chicago that doesn't exist anywhere else in the T14 with the possible exception of UChicago. I agree that NYU does have marginally better employment outcomes immediately after graduation but a lot of that is simply due to that geographic bias (not the PI vs Biglaw bias that typically surrounds NYU discussions since I believe that is a wash in comparison to NU due to the large NU JD/MBA class that tanks NU's employment scores). Also if you look at mid-career earning for those in the private sector NU actually beats NYU (and many other schools --LinkRemoved-- ) which aligns with the fact that when you count the number of partners at top firms the Chicago schools both U Chicago, which ranked first, and NU, which ranked in the top 4 behind only UVA, HLS, and UC, do astoundingly well.

It just seems to me that there is a huge NYC and "prestige" bias that doesn't justify the perceived gap between the T14s outside of HYS.

Meh. I'll grant you that NYC having more V20 offices helps NYU place into top vault firms, but NU really doesn't get you very far in DC.

[IAFG]

What is this?

I think it's stupid to rely entirely on statistics. As Jbagelboy said, according to those stats, Columbia, Stanford and Chicago are better than Yale, but we know that's not true.

I really think the US News rankings are useful. Assuming no scholarships, if a 0L has to make a decision as to which school to attend in 10 seconds, and if this 0L got into all the top schools, he would be best served by choosing the highest ranked school.
Assuming sticker, it seems:
Y
HS
CCN (CC a bit better than N)
PV (little difference between NYU and P)
BMDNC
G

So,

1) Don't rely on statistics
2) USNWR is useful (take a second look at what they use to calculate rankings and come back to me on that)
3) A heirarchy you just pulled out of your ass.

Lovely.

[beepboopbeep]

Assuming sticker, it seems:
Y
HS
CCN (CC a bit better than N)
PV (little difference between NYU and P)
BMDNC
G

Why would you assume sticker?

Please, 0L, share your fountain of school rank wisdom (that you what, picked up from other TLS posters and are now parroting?)

[manu6926]

...

[A. Nony Mouse]

Given that someone who gets into Yale is likely to get money from UVA, depending on what their goals are, that might be completely reasonable.

(Also, I'm not sure where USNWR comes into it when you've created tiers that don't match the USNWR rankings.)

[IAFG]

So,

1) Don't rely on statistics
2) USNWR is useful (take a second look at what they use to calculate rankings and come back to me on that)
3) A heirarchy you just pulled out of your ass.

Lovely.

Yeah you're absolutely right. 0Ls should choose UVA over Yale because its LST employment score is higher!

A 0L who can only make choices based on ordinal lists probs should go to Yale because they haven't enough grasp of nuance to perform well on LS exams.

[manu6926]

...

[B.B. Homemaker]

So,

1) Don't rely on statistics
2) USNWR is useful (take a second look at what they use to calculate rankings and come back to me on that)
3) A heirarchy you just pulled out of your ass.

Lovely.

Yeah you're absolutely right. 0Ls should choose UVA over Yale because its LST employment score is higher!

A 0L who can only make choices based on ordinal lists probs should go to Yale because they haven't enough grasp of nuance to perform well on LS exams.

[09042014]

Agreed that GULC isn't on the same level as the other T14s in terms of placement and that it probably only retains its position in the T14 over a grouping with UCLA, Vandy, etc. due to its lay prestige and ability to project further than those other schools.

But with regard to Northwestern and NYU again, isn't its placement power at top NYC firms just an example of selection bias. NU grads definitely have a proclivity towards Chicago that doesn't exist anywhere else in the T14 with the possible exception of UChicago. I agree that NYU does have marginally better employment outcomes immediately after graduation but a lot of that is simply due to that geographic bias (not the PI vs Biglaw bias that typically surrounds NYU discussions since I believe that is a wash in comparison to NU due to the large NU JD/MBA class that tanks NU's employment scores). Also if you look at mid-career earning for those in the private sector NU actually beats NYU (and many other schools --LinkRemoved-- ) which aligns with the fact that when you count the number of partners at top firms the Chicago schools both U Chicago, which ranked first, and NU, which ranked in the top 4 behind only UVA, HLS, and UC, do astoundingly well.

It just seems to me that there is a huge NYC and "prestige" bias that doesn't justify the perceived gap between the T14s outside of HYS.

Meh. I'll grant you that NYC having more V20 offices helps NYU place into top vault firms, but NU really doesn't get you very far in DC.

Niether does NYU

[manu6926]

...

[NYSprague]

Assuming sticker, it seems:
Y
HS
CCN (CC a bit better than N)
PV (little difference between NYU and P)
BMDNC
G

Why would you assume sticker?

Please, 0L, share your fountain of school rank wisdom (that you what, picked up from other TLS posters and are now parroting?)

I was just trying to point out the absurdity of relying entirely on employment numbers.

Are you related to the emo girl 0 L going to Harvard ? If not, you seem like you could be bffs.

[jbagelboy]

What is this?

I think it's stupid to rely entirely on statistics. As Jbagelboy said, according to those stats, Columbia, Stanford and Chicago are better than Yale, but we know that's not true.

I really think the US News rankings are useful. Assuming no scholarships, if a 0L has to make a decision as to which school to attend in 10 seconds, and if this 0L got into all the top schools, he would be best served by choosing the highest ranked school.
Assuming sticker, it seems:
Y
HS
CCN (CC a bit better than N)
PV (little difference between NYU and P)
BMDNC
G

I agree you can't rely on LST entirely, but it's far from stupid. And please don't ascribe my name next to any claim supporting the US News rankings or some derivative thereof; they are trash. How can you justify their use? It seems like you're relying on the age-old faulty circular argument of, "oh, USNWR is alright because these schools are better anyway - how do I know they are better? well, See USNWR!"

My point was a little more nuanced, but I've fought too many battles on this for one day.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I was just trying to point out the absurdity of relying entirely on employment numbers.

But I don't get that. Do you not want to get a job? And the flat employment score isn't the be-all and end-all - it's what kinds of jobs going into that score as well, and how the employment score intersects with cost. I don't think anyone has ever denied that.

[manu6926]

...

[jbagelboy]

Look what I assumed. These ppl really can't read.
That 0L in my hypothetical example has to choose in 10 seconds which school to attend. Okay let's make it clearer. That OL has either the US ranking or LST to look at in 10 seconds, and he got into all the top schools.

We see what you are getting at. But rather than keep up this losing shtick, why not just accept that's a completely unreasonable hypothetical and move on? We don't need another thread like this.

Also, you're still retroactively justifying the US News survey. Why?

[09042014]

What is this?

I think it's stupid to rely entirely on statistics. As Jbagelboy said, according to those stats, Columbia, Stanford and Chicago are better than Yale, but we know that's not true.

I really think the US News rankings are useful. Assuming no scholarships, if a 0L has to make a decision as to which school to attend in 10 seconds, and if this 0L got into all the top schools, he would be best served by choosing the highest ranked school.
Assuming sticker, it seems:
Y
HS
CCN (CC a bit better than N)
PV (little difference between NYU and P)
BMDNC
G

The DF formula for employment data. It's what percentage of the class that gets a good outcome.

lol USNEWs is retarded.

[manu6926]

...