Pepperdine, Loyola, Chapman, UC Irvine, and UC Davis Forum

[Salsa]

Hello! I am currently trying to decide between several law schools in California. I would like to hear as many genuine opinions as possible. I have been accepted to several others schools like UC Hastings and Santa Clara; however, I have narrowed my choices down to the following:

Pepperdine - scholarship for $38,000 per year
Loyola - scholarship for $35,000 per year
Chapman - scholarship for full tuition plus stipend of $500 for books
UC Irvine - awaiting offer that the dean said will arrive in about one week
UC Davis - scholarship for $30,000 per year

I currently live part time in Laguna with my grandparents and part time in Irvine with my boyfriend of two years. While I would consider moving, I would prefer to just be able to move full time to Irvine. Upon passing the bar, I would like to pursue a career in public interest law in Southern California. I know that UC Davis is ranked highest of these schools on the US News rankings, followed by Pepperdine then Loyola then Chapman. UC Irvine is not yet ranked but will soon become accredited. Unfortunately UC Irvine does not yet have much of an alumni base and Chapman has recently been dropping in the ranks. Loyola has a very strong public interest program and connections which is a big plus, but they have also been dropping in the ranks recently.

I currently work with several attorneys from Chapman. Most of them inform me that it will be easier to find job oppurtunities coming out of a higher ranked school. However, they also inform me that my class rank is very important in not only keeping my scholarship, but also in job oppurtunities or transfer oppurtunities. The scholarship I received from Chapman is to the most promising student out of the whole class. I know that if I go to Chapman that I will have a much easier time coming out as the top of my class. However, my alumni network will be more limited to Orange County whereas the alumni network of Pepperdine and Loyola reach to more areas of Southern California. I would love the proximity and offer of chapman from pepperdine or loyola. I have been told that some people have been able to leverage other offers to get increases in offers from the school they truly desire. I am considering contacting Pepperdine or Loyola if I chose them to ask for more $$.

I do fear after working in law for a year that I may get stuck in a field of law that I do not want if I take out too much in loans, as many of my attorneys at work have. Additionally, I fear that after law school that I may change my decision of what type of career to pursue and I do not want to be buried in debt so that I cannot pursue what I truly desire.

Please give me opinions for which law school to choose or advice about anything.

[dd235]

The scholarship I received from Chapman is to the most promising student out of the whole class. I know that if I go to Chapman that I will have a much easier time coming out as the top of my class.

Don’t count on this. Everyone on here will tell you that this just isn’t true.

What is your LSAT/GPA?

Seriously, don’t even consider Chapman. Almost 2/3 of their students aren’t lawyers 9 months after graduation (http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/chapman/2013/)

Really, you should be deciding between Davis and Irvine (who hasn’t offered you a scholly yet). Since it looks like you want to stay in Irvine and even already have housing there, you should see if Irvine can match your Davis offer.

[tabula rasa]

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

You can eliminate UC Davis because it will not get you back to Southern California.

Please keep in mind that none of these schools are very good options. Barely half of all Pepperdine and Loyola grads have a full time legal job of any kind. UC Irvine fares slightly better but is really a wild card; do not bank on being able to ride Chemerinsky's coattails, and do not attend at any significant debt load. Chapman is a flaming TTT where two-thirds of the graduates will not obtain a full-time legal job.

I do fear after working in law for a year that I may get stuck in a field of law that I do not want if I take out too much in loans, as many of my attorneys at work have. Additionally, I fear that after law school that I may change my decision of what type of career to pursue and I do not want to be buried in debt so that I cannot pursue what I truly desire.

If you are not absolutely certain that you want to be a lawyer, and you do not have strong reasons for wanting to be a lawyer, consider a different career path.

[prāna]

Hard choice if Irvine gives you little or no $$.

If, for example, Irvine gives you $10-20k (per year), given your area ties, PI goals, and a small incoming class this fall (90-100 people), it makes sense to pick UCI.

Good luck!

[Salsa]

I know that I want to be a lawyer. I just know that I want to be in public interest law and not get stuck in another type of law because of debt.

Why would you suggest UC Irvine over Pepperdine/Loyola who are much more established? UC Irvine is not yet accredited and their alumni network is very small because they are still newer.

Where are you getting your statistics for the percent of graduates who have full time legal jobs? The statistics I have read are different.

My GPA was 3.7 and LSAT was 163 (on second try). I already deferred a year due to personal reasons and I do not want to reapply for a third time if I waited to retake LSAT again.

[Salsa]

Hard choice if Irvine gives you little or no $$.

If, for example, Irvine gives you $10-20k (per year), given your area ties, PI goals, and a small incoming class this fall (90-100 people), it makes sense to pick UCI.

Good luck!

Thank you!

[dd235]

I know that I want to be a lawyer. I just know that I want to be in public interest law and not get stuck in another type of law because of debt.

Why would you suggest UC Irvine over Pepperdine/Loyola who are much more established? UC Irvine is not yet accredited and their alumni network is very small because they are still newer.

Where are you getting your statistics for the percent of graduates who have full time legal jobs? The statistics I have read are different.

My GPA was 3.7 and LSAT was 163 (on second try). I already deferred a year due to personal reasons and I do not want to reapply for a third time if I waited to retake LSAT again.

Law school transparency is where we are getting our employment statistics from. They get their numbers straight from the ABA. You should definitely spend hours on the site. http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/CA/

As for Irvine vs. Loyola/Pepperdine, it has a lot to do with what your goals are. If you want what most would consider a “good outcome” (Biglaw or Federal Clerkship) then Irvine is your best bet. If you are content making 45k/year at a small firm, then maybe Loyola/Pepperdine are better options.

Irvine is a big risk, but with it comes a big upside. Pepperdine/Loyola, on the other hand, have guaranteed mediocre outcomes. Irvine will also have much smaller class sizes. While there is also a potential downside to Irvine, most don’t think it will slip below Pepperdine/Loyola in terms of employment statistics.

[cahwc12]

I know that I want to be a lawyer. I just know that I want to be in public interest law and not get stuck in another type of law because of debt.

Why would you suggest UC Irvine over Pepperdine/Loyola who are much more established? UC Irvine is not yet accredited and their alumni network is very small because they are still newer.

Where are you getting your statistics for the percent of graduates who have full time legal jobs? The statistics I have read are different.

My GPA was 3.7 and LSAT was 163 (on second try). I already deferred a year due to personal reasons and I do not want to reapply for a third time if I waited to retake LSAT again.

Law school transparency is where we are getting our employment statistics from. They get their numbers straight from the ABA. You should definitely spend hours on the site. http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/CA/

As for Irvine vs. Loyola/Pepperdine, it has a lot to do with what your goals are. If you want what most would consider a “good outcome” (Biglaw or Federal Clerkship) then Irvine is your best bet. If you are content making 45k/year at a small firm, then maybe Loyola/Pepperdine are better options.

Irvine is a big risk, but with it comes a big upside. Pepperdine/Loyola, on the other hand, have guaranteed mediocre outcomes. Irvine will also have much smaller class sizes. While there is also a potential downside to Irvine, most don’t think it will slip below Pepperdine/Loyola in terms of employment statistics.

That outcome is guaranteed only insofar as you can actually secure employment, which has a probability of about 50%. What if you're in the other half?

Russian roulette is also a big risk with big upside. But Irvine has two bullets in the chamber, whereas russian roulette typically has one. At sticker, it would be crazy for OP to attend there, and it would be crazy for OP to go to any of these schools at these prices.


If I told you that doing thing X gave you an 80% chance at having a successful career and a 20% chance of financially crippling you for life, would you so hastily agree? That's the decision you make going to a top law school. With these schools, it's more like 30% successful and 70% financially crippling.

What rational person would ever make this decision?? You can count on one hand the number of TLS posters here who have gone through this process, landed successful jobs, AND recommend others do the same. And I'm not even sure you would use all the fingers....

[Salsa]

I understand that many of you do not think any of these choices are great. However, I am going to one of them and would like your opinions on which one you think would be best. As mentioned before I'm looking to go into public interest law. I'm not trying to be in big law.

I don't see how it would be crazy paying 8-10,000 tuition for 3 years to go to Loyola or Pepperdine. Or to pay nothing for chapman. Of course I'll have other expenses. While I may be risking my time, I'm not risking 150000+ in tuition debt alone if I paid full ticket price at these schools.

I know several lawyers who have graduated from chapman and Loyola that have very nice lives and jobs now. Some even own their own successful firms and make very good salaries. I also know some who went to a lot worse schools. I don't understand where all the hate is coming from towards these schools.

[ZGr88n]

I understand that many of you do not think any of these choices are great. However, I am going to one of them and would like your opinions on which one you think would be best. As mentioned before I'm looking to go into public interest law. I'm not trying to be in big law.

I don't see how it would be crazy paying 8-10,000 tuition for 3 years to go to Loyola or Pepperdine. Or to pay nothing for chapman. Of course I'll have other expenses. While I may be risking my time, I'm not risking 150000+ in tuition debt alone if I paid full ticket price at these schools.

I know several lawyers who have graduated from chapman and Loyola that have very nice lives and jobs now. Some even own their own successful firms and make very good salaries. I also know some who went to a lot worse schools. I don't understand where all the hate is coming from towards these schools.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... /ABA/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... /ABA/2013/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... /ABA/2013/

Instead of anecdotal success stories, please consult the facts above.

[BigZuck]

Don't worry about being forced to take a high paying job. These schools are all pretty terrible and almost certainly won't put you in the position to get a high paying job even if you wanted it.

Given your GPA, you need to retake and get a big scholarship to UCLA/USC if you want to be a lawyer. While UCI might eventually be ok the rest of those schools should honestly be consolidated and/or shut down given how many lives they ruin and how poorly they do at getting their graduate jobs as lawyers. Chapman in particular is one of the very worst law schools in this country.

Please, please retake and reapply.

[cahwc12]

I understand that many of you do not think any of these choices are great. However, I am going to one of them and would like your opinions on which one you think would be best. As mentioned before I'm looking to go into public interest law. I'm not trying to be in big law.

I don't see how it would be crazy paying 8-10,000 tuition for 3 years to go to Loyola or Pepperdine. Or to pay nothing for chapman. Of course I'll have other expenses. While I may be risking my time, I'm not risking 150000+ in tuition debt alone if I paid full ticket price at these schools.

I know several lawyers who have graduated from chapman and Loyola that have very nice lives and jobs now. Some even own their own successful firms and make very good salaries. I also know some who went to a lot worse schools. I don't understand where all the hate is coming from towards these schools.

If it were only $24,000 then your logic would be valid. But it's not.

Taking your best case scenario, that's $24,000 in tuition at 6.8% variable interest, $27,000/yr in cost of living, and three years of your life. And in the 70% likelihood that you don't get a job capable of offsetting the personal debt you'll take on to subsidize this, you'll have to start at square one again, where you are today.

Instead, why not just start at square one today, save three years of your life and $100,000 or more? Find something else to do, or if you truly want to go to law school, retake because only your LSAT and your desire to better prepare for the LSAT are holding you back.

Law school is great under the correct parameters, but you just don't meet any of them. Ideally, you want minimal cost at a school with >2/3 of its graduates employed as lawyers. You're talking about sizable COA at schools where <1/3 of their graduates are employed as lawyers.

And something else that most people don't like to accept is that this ABA data is SELF-REPORTED from graduates. It represents absolutely the rosiest possible picture. Anyone in a good job isn't going to lie and say it's not long-term or that they are "JD-Advantage" instead of requiring bar passage--or maybe because their employer said their JD was a positive in being hired as a middle-manager at a box company then that might somehow be good enough to be a "JD-Advantage" job. By contrast, someone filling out that report might feel enough shame to have a job as a paralegal after graduating and consider that as a job requiring bar passage. The schools don't give two shits on the veracity of that data if it errs on the positive side for them.

So under the best case scenario, this is what the job outcomes look like at the schools you are considering... and they are all terrible except at Davis/Irvine, and the cost is still prohibitive at those schools. They don't give enough money to warrant serious consideration unless you are truly masochistic.

[yeslekkkk]

Someone above posted to forget about UC Davis, because it won't get you back to Southern California. I disagree. Sure, most of their graduates work in Northern California and the Central Valley area, but going to Southern California is not out of the question. They place quite a few students in the LA area. The other good thing about Davis is that it's cheaper to live there. Don't forget that when you're tallying your debt.

Like others have said, scratch out Chapman. Your time isn't worth the measly outcomes.

Since you have a SO and are orange county focused, if you can get UC Irvine to match Davis' offer, then go to UC Irvine.

[Salsa]

Someone above posted to forget about UC Davis, because it won't get you back to Southern California. I disagree. Sure, most of their graduates work in Northern California and the Central Valley area, but going to Southern California is not out of the question. They place quite a few students in the LA area. The other good thing about Davis is that it's cheaper to live there. Don't forget that when you're tallying your debt.

Like others have said, scratch out Chapman. Your time isn't worth the measly outcomes.

Since you have a SO and are orange county focused, if you can get UC Irvine to match Davis' offer, then go to UC Irvine.

Thank you for your genuine and civil response. I really appreciate it!

[BigZuck]

Someone above posted to forget about UC Davis, because it won't get you back to Southern California. I disagree. Sure, most of their graduates work in Northern California and the Central Valley area, but going to Southern California is not out of the question. They place quite a few students in the LA area. The other good thing about Davis is that it's cheaper to live there. Don't forget that when you're tallying your debt.

Like others have said, scratch out Chapman. Your time isn't worth the measly outcomes.

Since you have a SO and are orange county focused, if you can get UC Irvine to match Davis' offer, then go to UC Irvine.

Thank you for your genuine and civil response. I really appreciate it!

Please, please, please don't go to Davis or Irvine for 130Kish cost of attendance. If you do so there is a very high probability that that decision will be on the short list of the worst decisions you have ever made.

Yesle- please don't advise people to attend TTT's for 130K. Especially when that TTT isn't even located in the region the OP is trying to get a job in.

[Jchance]

Given ur options and situation, i'd prob take UCI at scholly > 20k/year. If scholly is lower than that, I'd take Pepperdine.
I wouldn't attend UCD hoping for SoCal.
Best option is to retake for UCLA/USC.

[yeslekkkk]

Someone above posted to forget about UC Davis, because it won't get you back to Southern California. I disagree. Sure, most of their graduates work in Northern California and the Central Valley area, but going to Southern California is not out of the question. They place quite a few students in the LA area. The other good thing about Davis is that it's cheaper to live there. Don't forget that when you're tallying your debt.

Like others have said, scratch out Chapman. Your time isn't worth the measly outcomes.

Since you have a SO and are orange county focused, if you can get UC Irvine to match Davis' offer, then go to UC Irvine.

Thank you for your genuine and civil response. I really appreciate it!

Please, please, please don't go to Davis or Irvine for 130Kish cost of attendance. If you do so there is a very high probability that that decision will be on the short list of the worst decisions you have ever made.

Yesle- please don't advise people to attend TTT's for 130K. Especially when that TTT isn't even located in the region the OP is trying to get a job in.

You and I obviously don't have the same philosophies. Davis is NOT a TTT. Going to UC Davis with a 30K scholarship in the same state with faculty connections and personal connections to Southern California is NOT a terrible idea. Or this person can find a job in Northern California/Sac area. The future is so unknown. All I'm saying is that Davis is a better option than a lot of others. Also with a 30 K scholarship, in-state tuition, and reasonable living costs, it would not be 130K... more like 90kish and that is considering living for 12 months. They way overestimate living costs in the UC Davis estimated COA. How do I know? I lived there for three years. Yes, Davis isn't the perfect solution to OP's desires, but out of the choices, I don't think it's the worst one.

Going to law school anywhere with any debt is a risk right now.

Probably the best solution would be to retake for UCLA and hope for a large scholarship.

[BigZuck]

It's not as simple as "Oh, just get a job in Northern CA." Tell that to the 35-45% of the Davis graduating class that can't find lawyer jobs 9 months out every year.

Davis law is retardedly expensive. A 30K scholarship at Davis still leaves 20K a year in tution and fees for instate applicants and that's not including tuition increases, origination fees or interest. That's 70Kish for tuition alone. And then you have to eat. Even if that's only 15K a year cost of living with interest that's like 50K right there. So best case scenario you're looking at around 120K debt. That's a ton of debt for those job prospects.

I'm sorry Jose. No way.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

Hard choice if Irvine gives you little or no $$.

If, for example, Irvine gives you $10-20k (per year), given your area ties, PI goals, and a small incoming class this fall (90-100 people), it makes sense to pick UCI.

Good luck!

Thank you!

How does it make sense to take 200k in loans for PI at an unaccredited regional school in the hyper-saturated LA market? Retake or don't go to law school.

[Stupendous_Man]

If you're not in a rush, consider retaking the LSAT because your GPA would get you into UCLA or USC. Ancedotally, the difference in how easy it is to land a SoCal job from one of those schools compared to your current options is dramatic.

Barring that, I'd agree with what seems like the majority of posters here--UCI with a decent scholarship, otherwise Loyola or Pepperdine. The rankings of the latter two have shifted so dramatically lately that I'm not really sure what's what, so maybe visit both and consider your quality of life. I'd personally assume UCI will do as well or better in Irvine as those other two schools, and it sounds like your personal life would benefit, but UCI is a different kind of risk.

I'd contact all the schools now, before you're made your decision, and tell them you're having a hard time deciding between all these options. Tell them the scholarships you've received, and respectfully ask them whether they can increase their offers. They probably won't, but now is the most leverage you're going to have. If they do change their offers, that may change the analysis.

Congrats on your wealth of options, and best of luck!

[Yea All Right]

Others have already covered your options and given reasons. I just want to point out that it's not very reliable to count on having the same outcomes as lawyers 10-30 years older than us since the legal industry when they started out was very different from how it is now. According to basically all accounts, it is now more expensive to attend law school and much harder to get a job, making your alma mater and debt load exponentially more important.

[NorCalLaw]

It's not as simple as "Oh, just get a job in Northern CA." Tell that to the 35-45% of the Davis graduating class that can't find lawyer jobs 9 months out every year.

Davis law is retardedly expensive. A 30K scholarship at Davis still leaves 20K a year in tution and fees for instate applicants and that's not including tuition increases, origination fees or interest. That's 70Kish for tuition alone. And then you have to eat. Even if that's only 15K a year cost of living with interest that's like 50K right there. So best case scenario you're looking at around 120K debt. That's a ton of debt for those job prospects.

I'm sorry Jose. No way.

The no-law rates at Davis are actually lower than that, and they just cut class size by 25%, too.

He should only go if he's OK with working somewhere like Sacramento, though.

[BigZuck]

It's not as simple as "Oh, just get a job in Northern CA." Tell that to the 35-45% of the Davis graduating class that can't find lawyer jobs 9 months out every year.

Davis law is retardedly expensive. A 30K scholarship at Davis still leaves 20K a year in tution and fees for instate applicants and that's not including tuition increases, origination fees or interest. That's 70Kish for tuition alone. And then you have to eat. Even if that's only 15K a year cost of living with interest that's like 50K right there. So best case scenario you're looking at around 120K debt. That's a ton of debt for those job prospects.

I'm sorry Jose. No way.

The no-law rates at Davis are actually lower than that, and they just cut class size by 25%, too.

He should only go if he's OK with working somewhere like Sacramento, though.

Maybe my math sucks but wasn't it about 55-60-65 over the last three years when you subtract school funded jobs (which are highly questionable at TTT's). That would be a range between 45-35 yes?

Point being, the school doesn't do particularly good job of creating lawyers, and especially not in LA.

[Pepp2789]

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[NYC2012]

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