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Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:40 pm
by schnaupal
Hello - I apologize in advance for the length, but would greatly appreciate your thoughts.
Please do not quote this post!
I have a 3.7/176 (one take) with a STEM background and work experience in tech. I have been admitted to Columbia ($50K scholly) and Berkeley ($90K scholly), and am currently on the waitlist at Harvard. Right now I'm trying to narrow down my choices and determine whether or how long to pursue the Harvard waitlist.
My goals are to work in IP - biglaw, or even better, a boutique firm - on the West Coast after graduation. Eventually I would probably go in-house for some work/life balance. By West Cost, I mean I would prefer the Bay Area but am originally from Seattle and wouldn't mind going back there. I am not interested in SoCal. I would also love to clerk, but that isn't make-or-break for me.
In terms of academics and job prospects, I know Harvard is the obvious choice here. And money is not an issue for me, as I will not need to take out any loans for law school, although the scholarships are a definite bonus.
The twist is that I'm married and Harvard is by far the worst place to live for my husband (NYC is best). In addition to being very anti-cold weather, he has a fantastic job that he loves which has offices in NYC and SF, but not in Boston. If we move to Boston, he will be working from home, so will feel pretty isolated, and he'll also be expected to travel one week each month back to the company headquarters plus one or two days most other weeks to NYC for meetings.
So really, I'm trying to figure out whether Harvard is worth it. How much better are my chances of achieving my goals at Harvard rather than at Columbia or Berkeley?
If I am not admitted off the waitlist at Harvard, what would be the better choice between Columbia and Berkeley? I'd be equally happy living in both places for those three years but I did prefer the feel of Columbia. Columbia's employment stats are also much more attractive (though I'm not sure how they translate to employment in CA specifically). That said, their IP program seems more focused on arts and media rather than tech, and Berkeley is strong in tech IP. I didn't see a lot of clinics, externships, journals, etc. related to tech IP advertised on Columbia's site and am not sure how concerned I should be about this. If there are any current Columbia students out there, I would love to hear more about the programs available in my area of interest and how they stack up against Berk.
Thanks again!
ETA: Edited for clarity
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:43 pm
by ph14
Pursue HLS waitlist until you get a result, you might not have to even make a decision on the matter. If you do, reevaluate then. Berkeley is very well regarded for IP and very well regarded for practicing on the West Coast. I think Berkeley would be a good choice, though i'm unclear whether your cost of attendance is $90k at Berkeley, or if that is your scholarship. Either way, that's a good fit given your personal situation with your significant other and your goals of working in IP on the west coast. I think I would knock Columbia out of the running given your family situation and goals.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:07 pm
by Jchance
money is not an issue --> take the best school u get into, can't go wrong with the three choices here. Picking Berkeley or H would most likely guarantee u a Bay Area IP gig.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:11 pm
by ph14
Jchance wrote:money is not an issue --> take the best school u get into, can't go wrong with the three choices here. Picking Berkeley or H would most likely guarantee u a Bay Area IP gig.
Keep in mind OP's personal/family situation, which is really what makes this tough. But, although I hope you get into HLS and have a hard decision to make, if you don't then you have pretty easy decision.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:13 pm
by schnaupal
Is it really true that Berkeley would guarantee a Bay Area firm? It seems like their employment rates have been slipping lately, and that you still have to perform quite well to feel safe bidding Bay Area only. Do you definitely think my shot at Bay Area would be better coming from Berk than Columbia?
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:14 pm
by ph14
schnaupal wrote:Is it really true that Berkeley would guarantee a Bay Area firm? It seems like their employment rates have been slipping lately, and that you still have to perform quite well to feel safe bidding Bay Area only. Do you definitely think my shot at Bay Area would be better coming from Berk than Columbia?
It wouldn't "guarantee" you a Bay Area firm (neither would HLS for that matter). But Berkeley plus IP puts you in a solid position as any for a Bay Area position. Yes, your shot at Bay Area would be better coming from Berk than Columbia.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:02 am
by patogordo
i would go to berkeley and wouldn't think twice about it. unfortunately IP, especially patent law, is just not a priority at harvard. the one professor who teaches patent law here just left to take a position at MIT. they're replacing him with a visiting professor from UT to teach the basic patent law course but right now all the upper-level patent courses are in limbo and might be discontinued.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:09 am
by Big Dog
Cal is a no-brainer over CLS for your goals.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:10 am
by ph14
patogordo wrote:i would go to berkeley and wouldn't think twice about it. unfortunately IP, especially patent law, is just not a priority at harvard. the one professor who teaches patent law here just left to take a position at MIT. they're replacing him with a visiting professor from UT to teach the basic patent law course but right now all the upper-level patent courses are in limbo and might be discontinued.
What? Roin is leaving? MIT doesn't make sense for him. Fisher?
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:20 am
by lecsa
Biglaw + fed clerk percentages for class of 2013:
Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
Harvard: 54.5 + 17.0 = 71.5%
Berkeley: 47.8 + 8.0 = 55.8%
I'd probably go to Harvard.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:53 am
by patogordo
ph14 wrote:patogordo wrote:i would go to berkeley and wouldn't think twice about it. unfortunately IP, especially patent law, is just not a priority at harvard. the one professor who teaches patent law here just left to take a position at MIT. they're replacing him with a visiting professor from UT to teach the basic patent law course but right now all the upper-level patent courses are in limbo and might be discontinued.
What? Roin is leaving? MIT doesn't make sense for him. Fisher?
roin's leaving to teach at sloan. yea i don't get it either.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:02 am
by transferror
Big Dog wrote:Cal is a no-brainer over CLS for your goals.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:17 am
by NorCalLaw
schnaupal wrote:Is it really true that Berkeley would guarantee a Bay Area firm? It seems like their employment rates have been slipping lately, and that you still have to perform quite well to feel safe bidding Bay Area only. Do you definitely think my shot at Bay Area would be better coming from Berk than Columbia?
If you have a tech degree and experience, you'll have to really, really fuck up at UC Berkeley to not get an IP gig. Those folks are absolutely in demand.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:09 pm
by fltanglab
Just go to Berkeley. If you're 100% set on IP, it's the best choice hands down.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:29 pm
by jbagelboy
Columbia and Berkeley are both great for IP, but I'd have to agree that CLS has more of a media/arts/entertainment "soft" IP bent. Wu, Ginsburg, ect. are all top notch scholars but the tech stuff is heavier at Cal. There also aren't that many physical science majors at Columbia compared to Cal. So if the real tech stuff is your goal then I'd go to Berkeley.
It's fair to say Berkeley has stronger placement than Columbia in SF (due largely to proximity and the # of firms at each school's OCI), but not in California as a whole. I would strongly dispute the premise that Cal can better place a student at the same class rank as CLS in the state based on all my interactions with hiring personnel in southern California, where there are more jobs than the bay. But I digress.
If you get off the Harvard WL, it has a little more pull than Columbia in the bay area, but probably not more than Berkeley just for sf. Clearly nationwide firms will dig way deeper into H's class. But unless you're willing to bid NY, HCN all lose some of their placement security for bottom half.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:31 pm
by patogordo
jbagelboy wrote:It's fair to say Berkeley has stronger placement than Columbia in SF (due largely to proximity and the # of firms at each school's OCI), but not in California as a whole. I would strongly dispute the premise that Cal can better place a student at the same class rank as CLS in the state based on all my interactions with hiring personnel in southern California, where there are more jobs than the bay. But I digress.
probably not $40k worth, in any event
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:36 pm
by jbagelboy
patogordo wrote:jbagelboy wrote:It's fair to say Berkeley has stronger placement than Columbia in SF (due largely to proximity and the # of firms at each school's OCI), but not in California as a whole. I would strongly dispute the premise that Cal can better place a student at the same class rank as CLS in the state based on all my interactions with hiring personnel in southern California, where there are more jobs than the bay. But I digress.
probably not $40k worth, in any event
That's fair - I would only pay substantially more for CLS if I was interested in New York, or impartial and just wanted to come out of law school with a high paying job.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:18 pm
by 1278
So when you guys all say that Berk has excellent IP placement, are you talking about IP-prosecution only or also litigation? Is Berkeley better than Columbia even in IP-litigation placement? Or does IP litigation have nothing to so with technical background and is a completely different animal? Does a scientific/technical background (PhD) still offer some advantage though?
many thanks!
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:07 pm
by 09042014
Who the hell cares about IP academics?
I'd go Boalt unless HLS gives you a great aid award.
What sort STEM degree do you have? They all aren't equal.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:20 pm
by 09042014
1278 wrote:So when you guys all say that Berk has excellent IP placement, are you talking about IP-prosecution only or also litigation? Is Berkeley better than Columbia even in IP-litigation placement? Or does IP litigation have nothing to so with technical background and is a completely different animal? Does a scientific/technical background (PhD) still offer some advantage though?
many thanks!
Both.
IP lit doesn't totally necessitate a tech degree, but the vast majority of firms basically require a tech degree. Some notable firms don't care at though. You won't get a hiring boost for it though.
Re: Harvard, Columbia, or Berkeley for West Coast IP
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:43 am
by schnaupal
Desert Fox wrote:Who the hell cares about IP academics?
I'd go Boalt unless HLS gives you a great aid award.
What sort STEM degree do you have? They all aren't equal.
I have a degree in computer science from a T10 UG.
Again, the money is not an issue for me. I am most interested in maximizing my career opportunities and getting back to the west coast eventually.