Top Law Schools

Hello,

BEWARE: LONG BACKGROUND!

I have a 3.9X/172 and I have been dreaming about Stanford for quite some time now. I definitely want to practice in CA so I'm not very interested in schools outside of the west coast, although I still applied to a few on the east coast...

I took the December LSAT and applied mid January. Letters of Rec were solid, but PS was probably not as strong as it could be and wasn't school specific. I immigrated to the US, have been heavily involved in student government/student activities, i have related work experience from while i was in school. i also taught a class while in school and conducted a lot of research.

Either way, I got into Berkeley with quite a bit of money, but I still haven't heard from Stanford. Money matters, as my family's financial situation will not allow my parents to contribute to my education, but I received a full ride for undergrad so this is my first time taking on debt. I also feel that more opportunities might be worth a larger financial investment if those opportunities are significantly more likely to be available at the more expensive option.

My goals are to secure a clerkship and eventually enter academia. I don't want to work in big law long term but I would be alright with it temporarily to help pay off some debt.

Also, I went through all the faculty members at the top law schools in CA, and almost all the professors are from HYS and then there are a select few that went to Berkeley and now teach at Berkeley. Well, even those people tend to have some HYS experience.

So, now to my questions:
1. Is going to Berkeley going to hold me back in terms of clerking/entering academia?

2. Is it going to be worthwhile to give Stanford another shot next year? Keep in mind, I still haven't heard from Stanford, but I don't think it is likely for me to get in since it's late April.

How much is "quite a bit of money?"

It's true that you really need HYS for a shot at "legal academia," but unless you're at Yale the odds of cutting it are vanishingly small. Essentially, even if you do go to Stanford, you have only an outside chance at academia. That said, Stanford gives you a good shot at nabbing a clerkship. I doubt that any school places clerks in California at a higher rate than Stanford does. The vast majority of those clerks then go on to practice at big firms for a lot of money, and most never see the inside of a classroom again. Some will also get prestigious government positions, another option which is more likely than academia.

Do you actually want to practice law? If so, Berkeley will give you a great shot at that. Are you 100% dedicated to the idea of doing academia? If so, don't go to law school. You can get paid stipends at PhD programs if your scores are high enough. Lots of the new law professors have higher degrees as well. Getting a job in academia is an extremely tough slog, but there's no reason to go into massive debt for it if that's really what you want to do.

Did you get the idea of becoming a professor from speaking with your professors? I have a few friends who were sold the same bill of goods. Unfortunately, becoming a tenured professor is not nearly as easy as it once was, and typically involves years or even decades of purgatory while earning far below your market value.

Why do you want to be in academia?

NorCalLaw wrote:How much is "quite a bit of money?"

It's true that you really need HYS for a shot at "legal academia," but unless you're at Yale the odds of cutting it are vanishingly small. Essentially, even if you do go to Stanford, you have only an outside chance at academia. That said, Stanford gives you a good shot at nabbing a clerkship. I doubt that any school places clerks in California at a higher rate than Stanford does. The vast majority of those clerks then go on to practice at big firms for a lot of money, and most never see the inside of a classroom again. Some will also get prestigious government positions, another option which is more likely than academia.

Do you actually want to practice law? If so, Berkeley will give you a great shot at that. Are you 100% dedicated to the idea of doing academia? If so, don't go to law school. You can get paid stipends at PhD programs if your scores are high enough. Lots of the new law professors have higher degrees as well. Getting a job in academia is an extremely tough slog, but there's no reason to go into massive debt for it if that's really what you want to do.

Did you get the idea of becoming a professor from speaking with your professors? I have a few friends who were sold the same bill of goods. Unfortunately, becoming a tenured professor is not nearly as easy as it once was, and typically involves years or even decades of purgatory while earning far below your market value.

Berkeley gave me about 130k + need for the last two years (which will be affected by SA so I'm not counting on too much more). I'm in a good spot financially with them, but it's important to me to have as many options as possible when i'm done.

I've been teaching/tutoring English for years and I taught a class in undergrad where i had 25 students from my school, and i LOVED it. i think it was the most rewarding and enjoyable experience I had while in school and i know teaching makes me happy. law school has always been a goal and I have taken some legal coursework and greatly enjoyed it.

I enjoy the law in a theoretical sense and would enjoy writing policy/conducting research/teaching. i have no idea if i would enjoy actually being a practicing attorney bc i haven't done that before.

i'm definitely considering doing a phd/jd no matter where i go. both schools have some pretty solid ones that would qualify me to teach although im not sure if i would be considered competitive with a Berkeley degree.

hellomellow wrote:

NorCalLaw wrote:How much is "quite a bit of money?"

It's true that you really need HYS for a shot at "legal academia," but unless you're at Yale the odds of cutting it are vanishingly small. Essentially, even if you do go to Stanford, you have only an outside chance at academia. That said, Stanford gives you a good shot at nabbing a clerkship. I doubt that any school places clerks in California at a higher rate than Stanford does. The vast majority of those clerks then go on to practice at big firms for a lot of money, and most never see the inside of a classroom again. Some will also get prestigious government positions, another option which is more likely than academia.

Do you actually want to practice law? If so, Berkeley will give you a great shot at that. Are you 100% dedicated to the idea of doing academia? If so, don't go to law school. You can get paid stipends at PhD programs if your scores are high enough. Lots of the new law professors have higher degrees as well. Getting a job in academia is an extremely tough slog, but there's no reason to go into massive debt for it if that's really what you want to do.

Did you get the idea of becoming a professor from speaking with your professors? I have a few friends who were sold the same bill of goods. Unfortunately, becoming a tenured professor is not nearly as easy as it once was, and typically involves years or even decades of purgatory while earning far below your market value.

Berkeley gave me about 130k + need for the last two years (which will be affected by SA so I'm not counting on too much more). I'm in a good spot financially with them, but it's important to me to have as many options as possible when i'm done.

I've been teaching/tutoring English for years and I taught a class in undergrad where i had 25 students from my school, and i LOVED it. i think it was the most rewarding and enjoyable experience I had while in school and i know teaching makes me happy. law school has always been a goal and I have taken some legal coursework and greatly enjoyed it.

I enjoy the law in a theoretical sense and would enjoy writing policy/conducting research/teaching. i have no idea if i would enjoy actually being a practicing attorney bc i haven't done that before.

i'm definitely considering doing a phd/jd no matter where i go. both schools have some pretty solid ones that would qualify me to teach although im not sure if i would be considered competitive with a Berkeley degree.

Academia, starting out, is more about writing and publishing high quality pieces rather than about teaching. Once you get tenure you have more flexibility, but for the most part teaching will not affect your ability of getting an offer unless you are either really good or terrible at teaching.

If you plan on doing a PHD, clerkship, and/or fellowship, keep In mind that Stanford debt will swallow a huge portion of your take-home pay. The degree will certainly give you an edge getting in, but the costs will be a weight on your shoulders for the next decade. In fact, you might have to do biglaw anyway to make a nice dent and accrue some savings.

Keeping costs down, IMHO is king. This is clearly a good time to try and negotiate if you haven't already. Standford, knowing you are wavering, but be able to buy you off.

ph14 wrote:

hellomellow wrote:

NorCalLaw wrote:How much is "quite a bit of money?"

It's true that you really need HYS for a shot at "legal academia," but unless you're at Yale the odds of cutting it are vanishingly small. Essentially, even if you do go to Stanford, you have only an outside chance at academia. That said, Stanford gives you a good shot at nabbing a clerkship. I doubt that any school places clerks in California at a higher rate than Stanford does. The vast majority of those clerks then go on to practice at big firms for a lot of money, and most never see the inside of a classroom again. Some will also get prestigious government positions, another option which is more likely than academia.

Do you actually want to practice law? If so, Berkeley will give you a great shot at that. Are you 100% dedicated to the idea of doing academia? If so, don't go to law school. You can get paid stipends at PhD programs if your scores are high enough. Lots of the new law professors have higher degrees as well. Getting a job in academia is an extremely tough slog, but there's no reason to go into massive debt for it if that's really what you want to do.

Did you get the idea of becoming a professor from speaking with your professors? I have a few friends who were sold the same bill of goods. Unfortunately, becoming a tenured professor is not nearly as easy as it once was, and typically involves years or even decades of purgatory while earning far below your market value.

Berkeley gave me about 130k + need for the last two years (which will be affected by SA so I'm not counting on too much more). I'm in a good spot financially with them, but it's important to me to have as many options as possible when i'm done.

I've been teaching/tutoring English for years and I taught a class in undergrad where i had 25 students from my school, and i LOVED it. i think it was the most rewarding and enjoyable experience I had while in school and i know teaching makes me happy. law school has always been a goal and I have taken some legal coursework and greatly enjoyed it.

I enjoy the law in a theoretical sense and would enjoy writing policy/conducting research/teaching. i have no idea if i would enjoy actually being a practicing attorney bc i haven't done that before.

i'm definitely considering doing a phd/jd no matter where i go. both schools have some pretty solid ones that would qualify me to teach although im not sure if i would be considered competitive with a Berkeley degree.

Academia, starting out, is more about writing and publishing high quality pieces rather than about teaching. Once you get tenure you have more flexibility, but for the most part teaching will not affect your ability of getting an offer unless you are either really good or terrible at teaching.

i didn't mention earlier -- i actually really enjoy writing and conducted quite a bit of research in undergrad (helped write papers for professors as well), which got published, some had my name somewhere on the bottom but most didn't lol. when i say teaching, i mean everything that goes into it.

also, i may WANT to practice. I just want to make sure i have the option of going into academia as well. I'm more concerned about going somewhere that will hold me back if i decide that clerking/academia are paths i'm going to take.

You need to enter 1L already knowing that you want academia and what steps you are going to take to get there if you are to have any shot at it, even at HYS. A vague idea that it is something you might like to do pretty much brings your chance down to zero out of the gate.

Clerkship chances are better at Stanford, but that is only two years out of your career, so you need to figure out how much -- in monthly loan payments -- that is worth to you.

TooOld4This wrote:You need to enter 1L already knowing that you want academia and what steps you are going to take to get there if you are to have any shot at it, even at HYS. A vague idea that it is something you might like to do pretty much brings your chance down to zero out of the gate.

That's not true at all.

hellomellow wrote:

ph14 wrote:

hellomellow wrote:

NorCalLaw wrote:How much is "quite a bit of money?"

It's true that you really need HYS for a shot at "legal academia," but unless you're at Yale the odds of cutting it are vanishingly small. Essentially, even if you do go to Stanford, you have only an outside chance at academia. That said, Stanford gives you a good shot at nabbing a clerkship. I doubt that any school places clerks in California at a higher rate than Stanford does. The vast majority of those clerks then go on to practice at big firms for a lot of money, and most never see the inside of a classroom again. Some will also get prestigious government positions, another option which is more likely than academia.

Do you actually want to practice law? If so, Berkeley will give you a great shot at that. Are you 100% dedicated to the idea of doing academia? If so, don't go to law school. You can get paid stipends at PhD programs if your scores are high enough. Lots of the new law professors have higher degrees as well. Getting a job in academia is an extremely tough slog, but there's no reason to go into massive debt for it if that's really what you want to do.

Did you get the idea of becoming a professor from speaking with your professors? I have a few friends who were sold the same bill of goods. Unfortunately, becoming a tenured professor is not nearly as easy as it once was, and typically involves years or even decades of purgatory while earning far below your market value.

Berkeley gave me about 130k + need for the last two years (which will be affected by SA so I'm not counting on too much more). I'm in a good spot financially with them, but it's important to me to have as many options as possible when i'm done.

I've been teaching/tutoring English for years and I taught a class in undergrad where i had 25 students from my school, and i LOVED it. i think it was the most rewarding and enjoyable experience I had while in school and i know teaching makes me happy. law school has always been a goal and I have taken some legal coursework and greatly enjoyed it.

I enjoy the law in a theoretical sense and would enjoy writing policy/conducting research/teaching. i have no idea if i would enjoy actually being a practicing attorney bc i haven't done that before.

i'm definitely considering doing a phd/jd no matter where i go. both schools have some pretty solid ones that would qualify me to teach although im not sure if i would be considered competitive with a Berkeley degree.

Academia, starting out, is more about writing and publishing high quality pieces rather than about teaching. Once you get tenure you have more flexibility, but for the most part teaching will not affect your ability of getting an offer unless you are either really good or terrible at teaching.

i didn't mention earlier -- i actually really enjoy writing and conducted quite a bit of research in undergrad (helped write papers for professors as well), which got published, some had my name somewhere on the bottom but most didn't lol. when i say teaching, i mean everything that goes into it.

also, i may WANT to practice. I just want to make sure i have the option of going into academia as well. I'm more concerned about going somewhere that will hold me back if i decide that clerking/academia are paths i'm going to take.

I hate to push you on this again, but why do law school at all? It sounds like you like teaching and policy work the most- why not select a graduate program that will suit his path, rather than one that pushes most of its students into legal practice? Most of the things most lawyers do have little in common with the type of scholarship you are interested in, other than involving some research and writing.

Another issue is that most law schools are downsizing faculty rather than hiring more. I do not believe that other academic institutions are in the same boat, at least no to the same degree.

I am sure Stanford has great options too, but Berkeley has a year long seminar for people wanting to enter academia, and matches people with faculty mentors.

The PhD program in Jurisprudence and Social Policy also may be something that interests you, although that would be a ton of time in school.

I went to Berkeley, and I'm entering a visiting professor program starting next year. It is certainly possible to pursue an academic career, but it will be a tough road no matter where you go. I am not sure taking on way more debt for a little bit better prospects is the best idea for you, so Berkeley for a low price may be a good call.

And look into GSI opportunities while you are there. The poli sci dept, legal studies, and a lot of other programs will hire law students to teach undergrads, which will cut your debt down even more.

ph14 wrote:

TooOld4This wrote:You need to enter 1L already knowing that you want academia and what steps you are going to take to get there if you are to have any shot at it, even at HYS. A vague idea that it is something you might like to do pretty much brings your chance down to zero out of the gate.

That's not true at all.

In 5 years, see how many of your classmates have tenure track jobs and then see how many of those weren't gunning for it from day one (or within the first semester). Of the ones that weren't gunning for it from day one, how many of those didn't already have advanced degrees or work experience.

I'll be shocked if the answer doesn't line up with pretty much zero chance.

worldtraveler wrote:I am sure Stanford has great options too, but Berkeley has a year long seminar for people wanting to enter academia, and matches people with faculty mentors.

The PhD program in Jurisprudence and Social Policy also may be something that interests you, although that would be a ton of time in school.

I went to Berkeley, and I'm entering a visiting professor program starting next year. It is certainly possible to pursue an academic career, but it will be a tough road no matter where you go. I am not sure taking on way more debt for a little bit better prospects is the best idea for you, so Berkeley for a low price may be a good call.

And look into GSI opportunities while you are there. The poli sci dept, legal studies, and a lot of other programs will hire law students to teach undergrads, which will cut your debt down even more.

Actually, funny that you mentioned it -- JSP is something that I am strongly considering if I go to Berkeley. It would only be one more additional year, so it doesn't sound too bad! What route did you take at Berks?

TooOld4This wrote:

ph14 wrote:

TooOld4This wrote:You need to enter 1L already knowing that you want academia and what steps you are going to take to get there if you are to have any shot at it, even at HYS. A vague idea that it is something you might like to do pretty much brings your chance down to zero out of the gate.

That's not true at all.

In 5 years, see how many of your classmates have tenure track jobs and then see how many of those weren't gunning for it from day one. Of the ones that weren't gunning for it from day one, how many of those didn't already have advanced degrees or work experience.

I'll be shocked if the answer doesn't line up with pretty much zero chance.

What can you do that would meaningfully help your chances for academia during law school? It's all the same sort of resume items that someone clerking would/should pursue, e.g., (not exhaustive):

1. Good grades
2. Professor connections
3. Law review
4. Publication(s) (though student publications are heavily discounted and not super important for academic hiring, except maybe for a fellowship perhaps)

Go clerk for a year, get a year or two of practice experience, get a fellowship, publish 2 quality pieces in a field that isn't completely oversaturated, and get a position somewhere. None of this specifically requires you to be focused on legal academia yet.

the reason i'm pushing for law school is because I am interested in studying the law and practicing law. i just don't know if i want to be a practicing attorney all my life or how exactly i want to practice law.

i also don't want to limit myself to ONLY academia. i am interested in pursuing academia so it's important to go about this in a way where that door is still open but i want to allow myself the ability to become a successful attorney as well by going to a good law school etc.

i've toyed with the idea to take more time before i go, but i just don't know how much taking a few years off to work in a completely unrelated field that will help me pay my bills will help me in figuring this out.

I went to SLS' ASW, where I spoke extensively with the faculty members who run the program for aspiring academics. PM me if you want to talk specifics.

Although SLS' faculty has fewer academic all stars, there are significant resources for those interested in academia. I can't offer any comparative analysis re Berkeley v. Stanford. What I can say, however, is that as a student with academic aspirations I ultimately chose Yale— largely for its stronger resources and unmatched record in this regard. Again, feel free to PM me for more info.

ph14 wrote:

TooOld4This wrote:

ph14 wrote:

TooOld4This wrote:You need to enter 1L already knowing that you want academia and what steps you are going to take to get there if you are to have any shot at it, even at HYS. A vague idea that it is something you might like to do pretty much brings your chance down to zero out of the gate.

That's not true at all.

In 5 years, see how many of your classmates have tenure track jobs and then see how many of those weren't gunning for it from day one. Of the ones that weren't gunning for it from day one, how many of those didn't already have advanced degrees or work experience.

I'll be shocked if the answer doesn't line up with pretty much zero chance.

What can you do that would meaningfully help your chances for academia during law school? It's all the same sort of resume items that someone clerking would/should pursue, e.g., (not exhaustive):

1. Good grades
2. Professor connections
3. Law review
4. Publication(s) (though student publications are heavily discounted and not super important for academic hiring, except maybe for a fellowship perhaps)

Go clerk for a year, get a year or two of practice experience, get a fellowship, publish 2 quality pieces in a field that isn't completely over saturated, and get a position somewhere. None of this specifically requires you to be focused on legal academia yet.

see, like that's what i was hoping to do. maybe get a fellowship or clerk after law school and start working on building up my portfolio.. like i'll do what it takes, i just don't know the best route.

going back to the original post, i applied late bc i had taken the december LSAT and was originally going to wait until next year to apply. Then, some things came up and I applied last minute, not really spending enough time on my apps (but my letters of rec were already submitted months prior to they are solid). My question is, do I take Berkeley's offer or will that hold me back from options I'm interested in pursuing, OR do I wait to hear back from Stanford/reapply next year with a stronger application, in the case that i don't get in.

hellomellow wrote:the reason i'm pushing for law school is because I am interested in studying the law and practicing law. i just don't know if i want to be a practicing attorney all my life or how exactly i want to practice law.

i also don't want to limit myself to ONLY academia. i am interested in pursuing academia so it's important to go about this in a way where that door is still open but i want to allow myself the ability to become a successful attorney as well by going to a good law school etc.

i've toyed with the idea to take more time before i go, but i just don't know how much taking a few years off to work in a completely unrelated field that will help me pay my bills will help me in figuring this out.

It sounds like you'll probably end up working at a firm. If you are targeting law firms in California, Berkeley with massive scholarship is the best way to get there.

jbagelboy wrote:

hellomellow wrote:the reason i'm pushing for law school is because I am interested in studying the law and practicing law. i just don't know if i want to be a practicing attorney all my life or how exactly i want to practice law.

i also don't want to limit myself to ONLY academia. i am interested in pursuing academia so it's important to go about this in a way where that door is still open but i want to allow myself the ability to become a successful attorney as well by going to a good law school etc.

i've toyed with the idea to take more time before i go, but i just don't know how much taking a few years off to work in a completely unrelated field that will help me pay my bills will help me in figuring this out.

It sounds like you'll probably end up working at a firm. If you are targeting law firms in California, Berkeley with massive scholarship is the best way to get there.

+1

Consider also how much the pressure of debt, combined with the saturation and insecurity of the academic job market, might steer you away from academia and into big law. Keeping your debt low while entering a program like Berkeley with good resources and support for aspiring academics may be the way to go. (BTW, the JSP program is truly impressive and you should definitely explore). As you might have gathered from looking around on TLS, few people get massive scholarships at Boalt. You're lucky to be one of those people this year and I don't know that the school would take a risk on you again next year if you re-applied. Personally I wouldn't risk it.

ph14 wrote:

TooOld4This wrote:

ph14 wrote:

TooOld4This wrote:You need to enter 1L already knowing that you want academia and what steps you are going to take to get there if you are to have any shot at it, even at HYS. A vague idea that it is something you might like to do pretty much brings your chance down to zero out of the gate.

That's not true at all.

In 5 years, see how many of your classmates have tenure track jobs and then see how many of those weren't gunning for it from day one. Of the ones that weren't gunning for it from day one, how many of those didn't already have advanced degrees or work experience.

I'll be shocked if the answer doesn't line up with pretty much zero chance.

What can you do that would meaningfully help your chances for academia during law school? It's all the same sort of resume items that someone clerking would/should pursue, e.g., (not exhaustive):

1. Good grades
2. Professor connections
3. Law review
4. Publication(s) (though student publications are heavily discounted and not super important for academic hiring, except maybe for a fellowship perhaps)

Go clerk for a year, get a year or two of practice experience, get a fellowship, publish 2 quality pieces in a field that isn't completely oversaturated, and get a position somewhere. None of this specifically requires you to be focused on legal academia yet.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but how does one publish some "quality pieces" once he or she is out of law school?

emu42 wrote:

ph14 wrote:

TooOld4This wrote:

ph14 wrote:
That's not true at all.

In 5 years, see how many of your classmates have tenure track jobs and then see how many of those weren't gunning for it from day one. Of the ones that weren't gunning for it from day one, how many of those didn't already have advanced degrees or work experience.

I'll be shocked if the answer doesn't line up with pretty much zero chance.

What can you do that would meaningfully help your chances for academia during law school? It's all the same sort of resume items that someone clerking would/should pursue, e.g., (not exhaustive):

1. Good grades
2. Professor connections
3. Law review
4. Publication(s) (though student publications are heavily discounted and not super important for academic hiring, except maybe for a fellowship perhaps)

Go clerk for a year, get a year or two of practice experience, get a fellowship, publish 2 quality pieces in a field that isn't completely oversaturated, and get a position somewhere. None of this specifically requires you to be focused on legal academia yet.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but how does one publish some "quality pieces" once he or she is out of law school?

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking. Are you asking how do you know whether a piece is a quality one? Ask professors/practitioners/law students in the field for advice/comments and also actually submit it in a submissions cycle and see whether you get any bites, and if so, from what journals.

emu42 wrote: Sorry to hijack the thread, but how does one publish some "quality pieces" once he or she is out of law school?

Practitioners still regularly submit articles for publication in law reviews. Also there are a number of journals of legal scholarship accessible to current attorneys, judges, clerks, ect.

You would probably just reach out to a professor you had or knew through someone at your firm/gov office/ect and send them your work, or submit it directly to the journal editors if you had a contact.

When would you guys consider attending Stanford to be a better decision than Berkeley.

I'm just curious bc I get the feeling the tls community generally supports not going to HYS when debt can be greatly reduced elsewhere.

hellomellow wrote:When would you guys consider attending Stanford to be a better decision than Berkeley.

I'm just curious bc I get the feeling the tls community generally supports not going to HYS when debt can be greatly reduced elsewhere.

It's really hard to answer that in the abstract because there are so many factors at play.