Top Law Schools

I feel a bit silly for posting, but I've gone back and forth convincing myself to attend one school or the other multiple times so I'm breaking down and soliciting advice.

Goals: Either regulatory or transactional work at a large firm. Interesting in clerkships but not banking on anything and would be fine working at a firm straight out. I've been working in DC for the past several years in a legally relevant position, and have a small number of family members here, so I'd say my ties are fairly strong here. I would prefer to be in either DC or NY, though I have no ties to NY.

Stats: ~3.7 / 176 with significant work experience. I also intend to defer for a year for personal reasons I could not have anticipated when I applied, but I have no desire or ability really to reapply, and retaking isn't really going to do anything because I can't retake college.

Options: Columbia at $180k or UVA at $125k (not including any summer earnings that could result from a summer associate position, though Columbia's grants assume I'll have savings for 3L. Also, I know Columbia doesn't let you defer grants, but my financial situation would not change so substantially, other than my remaining undergrad loans of ~$10k would be paid off and I'd have $5-10k to put toward COA, so I would anticipate a similar award next year). Everything would be paid through loans.

I loved both schools when I visited. I appreciate how quaint Charlottesville seems, but particularly fell in love with Columbia for its neighborhood and the professors' current projects. Given that my goal is pretty much a large firm, Columbia's job placement stats are impressive, but I don't know that they're worth that much more over UVA. I also feel that that's because so many grads go to NY firms, so there is likely some self-selection bias in the figure. And if I wanted to be in DC for the long term, I feel that UVA may be an even better option because the alumni network seems stronger here (though correct me if I'm wrong). I feel I would be happy either place, but have a slight preference for the environment at Columbia.

Thank you in advance! Please post your rationale for choosing one school over the other- thanks!

Is the added job security worth 55k to you? If you were K-JD, I would say Columbia is the right choice. This is just a gut feeling, but considering your ties to DC and relevant WE, I would say you will be just fine at UVA even if you're at median.

...

Was in a similar situation. Picked UVA because I genuinely liked it more (although I totally agree that Columbia showcased its faculty extremely well). I also have the idea that UVA will help me keep my options open after school, whereas at Columbia I would very likely go straight to an NYC firm. If you think you'd be happy going straight to NY biglaw, Columbia seems like a slam dunk. If you don't want to be pressured towards that, take UVA. More importantly, though, you should probably go to the one you think you'd like more and at which you'd be more motivated to succeed.

Only you can decide how much the money is worth.

UVA.

ETA - CLS is undoubtedly better, but $180k scares me at literally any school.

JSWright101 wrote:

transferror wrote:Is the added job security worth 55k to you? If you were K-JD, I would say Columbia is the right choice. This is just a gut feeling, but considering your ties to DC and relevant WE, I would say you will be just fine at UVA even if you're at median.

Idk UVA has pretty great placement (second to Penn outside of the T6 I think). It also has nice gov/DC connections. As it's also more convenient I don't see how CLS could be worth $55k more in any way. Take UVA.

Er, no. Here's class of 2013 biglaw and fed clerk percentages.

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
Stanford: 48.5 + 29.4 = 77.8%
Chicago: 62.3 + 10.2 = 72.6%
Harvard: 54.5 + 17.0 = 71.5%
Penn: 59.8 + 9.3 = 69.1%
Cornell: 57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Yale: 30.5 + 35 = 65.5%
Northwestern: 55.6 + 7.7 = 63.4%
UVA: 50 + 12.9 = 62.9%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%
Michigan: 49.4 + 7.8 = 57.1%
Berkeley: 47.8 + 8.0 = 55.8%
GULC: 41.4 + 5.1 = 46.5%

UVA also has the highest percentage out of the t-14 employed by the school as part of school funded fellowships: ~16-17%. It has one of the highest real unemployment rates out of the t-14.

lecsa wrote:

JSWright101 wrote:

transferror wrote:Is the added job security worth 55k to you? If you were K-JD, I would say Columbia is the right choice. This is just a gut feeling, but considering your ties to DC and relevant WE, I would say you will be just fine at UVA even if you're at median.

Idk UVA has pretty great placement (second to Penn outside of the T6 I think). It also has nice gov/DC connections. As it's also more convenient I don't see how CLS could be worth $55k more in any way. Take UVA.

Er, no. Here's class of 2013 biglaw and fed clerk percentages.

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
Stanford: 48.5 + 29.4 = 77.8%
Chicago: 62.3 + 10.2 = 72.6%
Harvard: 54.5 + 17.0 = 71.5%
Penn: 59.8 + 9.3 = 69.1%
Cornell: 57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Yale: 30.5 + 35 = 65.5%
Northwestern: 55.6 + 7.7 = 63.4%
UVA: 50 + 12.9 = 62.9%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%
Michigan: 49.4 + 7.8 = 57.1%
Berkeley: 47.8 + 8.0 = 55.8%
GULC: 41.4 + 5.1 = 46.5%

UVA also has the highest percentage out of the t-14 employed by the school as part of school funded fellowships: ~16-17%. It has one of the highest real unemployment rates out of the t-14.

Any metric that lists Yale as a middling T14 is clearly on point. This shit is really helpful.

I know I wouldn't want to go to a school that will pay your salary if you don't immediately get a job on your own. I'd much rather be broke and unemployed. Good on you, sister. Thanks for the added value.

FattyMcFatFat wrote:

lecsa wrote:

JSWright101 wrote:

transferror wrote:Is the added job security worth 55k to you? If you were K-JD, I would say Columbia is the right choice. This is just a gut feeling, but considering your ties to DC and relevant WE, I would say you will be just fine at UVA even if you're at median.

Idk UVA has pretty great placement (second to Penn outside of the T6 I think). It also has nice gov/DC connections. As it's also more convenient I don't see how CLS could be worth $55k more in any way. Take UVA.

Er, no. Here's class of 2013 biglaw and fed clerk percentages.

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
Stanford: 48.5 + 29.4 = 77.8%
Chicago: 62.3 + 10.2 = 72.6%
Harvard: 54.5 + 17.0 = 71.5%
Penn: 59.8 + 9.3 = 69.1%
Cornell: 57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Yale: 30.5 + 35 = 65.5%
Northwestern: 55.6 + 7.7 = 63.4%
UVA: 50 + 12.9 = 62.9%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%
Michigan: 49.4 + 7.8 = 57.1%
Berkeley: 47.8 + 8.0 = 55.8%
GULC: 41.4 + 5.1 = 46.5%

UVA also has the highest percentage out of the t-14 employed by the school as part of school funded fellowships: ~16-17%. It has one of the highest real unemployment rates out of the t-14.

Any metric that lists Yale as a middling T14 is clearly on point. This shit is really helpful.

I know I wouldn't want to go to a school that will pay your salary if you don't immediately get a job on your own. I'd much rather be broke and unemployed. Good on you, sister. Thanks for the added value.

For one year max, for only 30k.

It's to pad their unemployment statistics for USNews, and I guess it works. Nonetheless, the "real unemployment" rate is still one of the highest out of the top 14 (if I recall correctly maybe second after Georgetown).

lecsa wrote:

FattyMcFatFat wrote:

lecsa wrote:

JSWright101 wrote:
Idk UVA has pretty great placement (second to Penn outside of the T6 I think). It also has nice gov/DC connections. As it's also more convenient I don't see how CLS could be worth $55k more in any way. Take UVA.

Er, no. Here's class of 2013 biglaw and fed clerk percentages.

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
Stanford: 48.5 + 29.4 = 77.8%
Chicago: 62.3 + 10.2 = 72.6%
Harvard: 54.5 + 17.0 = 71.5%
Penn: 59.8 + 9.3 = 69.1%
Cornell: 57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%
NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.0%
Yale: 30.5 + 35 = 65.5%
Northwestern: 55.6 + 7.7 = 63.4%
UVA: 50 + 12.9 = 62.9%
Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.2%
Michigan: 49.4 + 7.8 = 57.1%
Berkeley: 47.8 + 8.0 = 55.8%
GULC: 41.4 + 5.1 = 46.5%

UVA also has the highest percentage out of the t-14 employed by the school as part of school funded fellowships: ~16-17%. It has one of the highest real unemployment rates out of the t-14.

Any metric that lists Yale as a middling T14 is clearly on point. This shit is really helpful.

I know I wouldn't want to go to a school that will pay your salary if you don't immediately get a job on your own. I'd much rather be broke and unemployed. Good on you, sister. Thanks for the added value.

For one year max, for only 30k.

It's to pad their unemployment statistics for USNews, and I guess it works. Nonetheless, the "real unemployment" rate is still one of the highest out of the top 14 (if I recall correctly maybe second after Georgetown).

Your "real unemployment" characterization is literally false because if one has a job for which she is paid, she is not unemployed--this is not debatable, and it's also kind of the bottom line. I also strongly disagree with your figurative meaning because schools also do this to promote public service, it often (if not almost universally) turns into a legitimate full-time job, and it's 12-13% at Yale.

On the other hand, it's less than 1% at Cooley, a school where admission is clearly the pinnacle of academic achievement, so I see your point.

You have to remember - and this is an essential point - that not all transactional Biglaw employment is created equal. If you wash out at, e.g., Davis Polk, your options are way better than if you wash out at, say Paul Hastings - your in house ops are way better and if you want to stay in biglaw, plenty of folks from the top 5-7 firms get their second job at perfectly decent second tier places like Latham or Ropes, etc..

IMO, given that and your stated goals, I'd pay extra for CLS. The ability to be in the running for the top transactional shops - Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary/Simpson - with merely above median (maybe top third?) grades is enormously valuable because 1L is enough of a grind as is without having to terrified of a B+.

Litigation is different because the best jobs aren't as concentrated at a small number of elite firms. There, I might take UVA.

.

bruinfan10 wrote:The aggressive ignorance you're displaying here almost gave me an aneurysm. Surely you can comprehend that Columbia and Cornell have amazing Biglaw placement stats because they feed students into the NYC Biglaw meatgrinder every year, whereas Yale students can do literally anything they want (and they're generally smart enough to self-select out of that dead-end racket?). Did you notice the show-stopping proportion of Yale's employment percentage made up of fed clerks rather than Biglaw? This is some first-grade level reading comp.

Seriously, I'm not trying to troll or be controversial here--UVA is the lowest of the low in terms of dishonest/inaccurate employment reporting. People stopped seriously defending their blatant numbers-gaming through student funded positions a long time ago--of course you can make the flaccid point that it's "better than nothing," but UVA is not second to Penn in job placement.

You're an asshole. I like you. You can stay. Just no more of the sort of claptrap I've stricken through. It's pretty:

aggressive ignorance

Personally, I'd probably take Columbia here because it only has 8.3% school-funded employment.

0L here.

Columbia at 55k more than UVA seems reasonable enough for NYC biglaw. 180k is a lot of debt, and you likely have to last 5 years in biglaw to pay it off substantially, whereas with 125k debt, maybe you could get rid of a large chunk in 3 years (40k per year or so). So you're already suffering in biglaw for multiple years. Maybe you want to give yourself a better chance at that salary and whatever exit options are on the table for Columbia grads in NYC (or other Northeast cities?). Common wisdom would say Columbia is a superior brand to have on your resume in NYC, but I don't know how much that matters following biglaw.

Granted, I personally would take UVA since I'm usually a part of the debt-averse crowd, but Columbia to me is justifiable here.

Did you apply to Cornell? Seems like you'd get tons of money there due to being over the GPA median.

.

I don't see how you didn't get more money from UVA, even with your GPA.

Go Columbia. You already have sufficient ties.

Sure there's self-selection at Columbia for NYC, but that's only part of the reason (probably less of a factor than most people make it out to be).

Also, I'd be much more comfortable bidding half DC, half NY (or whatever your plan is) at Columbia than at UVA.
Generally, your chances at DC are probably equal at Columbia and UVA (maybe even better at Columbia since you already have the ties). Your chances at your NY back-ups are going to be much better at Columbia. It's worth the 55k difference IMO

Thanks for the replies so far everybody! It seems like the votes are pretty evenly split... Responsible me is thinking how much more financial flexibility I'd have a little sooner after graduation if I went to UVA, especially knowing what it's like having to pay back loans, but terrified-I-will-only-be-median me is liking Columbia's employment numbers. Again, I'll have 6 years of WE at the time I go to school since I'm planning to defer, so I'd like to think that will help.

WokeUpInACar wrote:Did you apply to Cornell? Seems like you'd get tons of money there due to being over the GPA median.

Nah, I didn't apply to Cornell- very specific personal reasons for not considering it. But please tell me your handle is from the SoCo song...that would make my day.

Ties aren't particularly relevant for NY and DC (unless you count prior gov't work in the capital). DC is about grades; NY is about bodies.

I would take CLS here but it's a personal call. FWIW I did not apply to UVA, but I did choose CLS over comparable schools at that cost differential.

jasper09 wrote:Thanks for the replies so far everybody! It seems like the votes are pretty evenly split... Responsible me is thinking how much more financial flexibility I'd have a little sooner after graduation if I went to UVA, especially knowing what it's like having to pay back loans, but terrified-I-will-only-be-median me is liking Columbia's employment numbers. Again, I'll have 6 years of WE at the time I go to school since I'm planning to defer, so I'd like to think that will help.

WokeUpInACar wrote:Did you apply to Cornell? Seems like you'd get tons of money there due to being over the GPA median.

Nah, I didn't apply to Cornell- very specific personal reasons for not considering it. But please tell me your handle is from the SoCo song...that would make my day.

Female with 6 years of WE at median is perfectly fine at UVA. I know several females below median with less work experience who landed fantastic gigs, some of which you might even refer to as "exclusive" or "prestigious" (i.e. SF Biglaw w/o ties).

It really is close enough that you should go with your personal preference on how you feel about the school/area. I would have picked Columbia b/c I was super-scared about not having a job after OCI and it seems the odds of that happening are slightly lower here. But the chances of being someone who strikes out at UVA but would not have struck out at Columbia are pretty slim (i.e., I think most people who struggle through OCI at any T-14 would struggle through it at Columbia).

I'm surprised you didn't get full-rides at more places. Those are ridiculous numbers.

bowser wrote:But the chances of being someone who strikes out at UVA but would not have struck out at Columbia are pretty slim (i.e., I think most people who struggle through OCI at any T-14 would struggle through it at Columbia).

This might hold for personality issues and people who can't conduct themselves in a professional environment or interview terribly and will be liable to strike out anywhere, but it doesn't make sense grade-wise. Firms definitely pull deeper into the class at CLS then other schools; anecdote and data confirm this.

jbagelboy wrote:

bowser wrote:But the chances of being someone who strikes out at UVA but would not have struck out at Columbia are pretty slim (i.e., I think most people who struggle through OCI at any T-14 would struggle through it at Columbia).

This might hold for personality issues and people who can't conduct themselves in a professional environment or interview terribly and will be liable to strike out anywhere, but it doesn't make sense grade-wise. Firms definitely pull deeper into the class at CLS then other schools; anecdote and data confirm this.

There is an advantage at Columbia---but when you're talking about the odds of not getting a job at all, the advantage is less pronounced than for those who are in a strong position already and just want more options. For the following reasons:

(1) Most people who strike out are not strong interviewers. They're not all terrible, but they're average or below average (at least at OCI interviewing, which is a bit of a different animal). This is actually the #1 reason people strike out, not poor grades--I would rather have like a 3.1--3.2 and be a strong interviewer than just above median and be an average one.

(2) Generally, I think the firms that will go deeper into the class at CLS---and there are quite a few of them---are firms that are somewhat selective regardless, even for CLS. I don't have a ton of data to back this up, but from having done OCI and looked at the types of grades firms want from CLS, I have come to my own conclusion that your advantage at CLS as opposed to say UVA or Michigan is stronger for Cravath/Paul Weiss/Davis Polk than it is for Proskauer, DLA Piper, Jones Day, Dechert, Sidley, etc. If someone wants to dispute this with better evidence, please do so.

But like I said, there still is an absolute advantage at CLS, and it's probably worth 55k, depending on what type of risk-averseness OP favors. It's just not as pronounced as some of the metrics may indicate. A minority strike out here, just like a minority strikes out anywhere else.