Voice your opinion! EDITED Forum

[DavidLindhagen]

Long time lurker, first time poster! Edited for changed circumstances in financials and goals, please don't quote!

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, I have provided as much of the following information in my original post as possible (will update as needed):

-The schools you are considering and the total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.

Cornell- 269k
GULC- 110K
Vandy- 149K
WUStL- 74K

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings

Loans. The above posted #'s are loan balance 6 months after graduation, with scholarships, personal savings, and family contributions factored in.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)

Born and raised in Boston. Really want to target southeastern markets such as Nashville, Atlanta, and NC, in order to establish a permanant residence with the S/O. DC or coming back to Boston is also within reason. S/O wants to stay anywhere on the east coast. Not really wanting NYC, but could warm up to the idea if I need to in order to reasonably pay off loans.

-Your general career goals

Ultimate goal would be Fed or even State Gov.
Big Law or Mid Law litigation (and all that it entails) and/or Clerkships are also high on my list.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers

169/3.4X

-How many times you have taken the LSAT

3. Not eligible for a retake until 2/15

-Additional Info

Riding the WL at UVA, Penn, and Duke.
Opportunity cost isn't too dramatic. 1 year of W/E in the legal market. But would feel comfortable starting school sooner than later.

Let me know if I need to add anymore information for a better assesment. Thanks!

[twenty]

All things considered, GULC for 140k COA is not bad (though still a little high...) If you want to be in the south more than you care about the likelihood of getting biglaw, negotiate Vandy down to sub-75k COA.

[DavidLindhagen]

All things considered, GULC for 140k COA is not bad (though still a little high...) If you want to be in the south more than you care about the likelihood of getting biglaw, negotiate Vandy down to sub-75k COA.

With Vandy, that would be the goal. But they are a bit stiff to negotiating at this point, so that has me worried.

GULC does seem like an okay offer, but I'm worried about not getting into the south without significant ties. COL really sucks, too.

[twenty]

but I'm worried about not getting into the south without significant ties.

Understandably, but if your SO becomes a fiance in the next three years and she's living in the south for work/family/etc. that should establish ties. Vandy isn't (probably) going to be enough on its own to establish ties to the region regardless.

[Nomo]

I think you're going to find it hard to get a job (at least a biglaw job) in the south from Vandy without ties. Though I think it will be harder form Georgetown.

You're also talking about taking on 150k debt for schools that place less than half their grads in biglaw . . . and in Vandy its often southern biglaw for students with ties (not you) and with Georgetown its largely into the biggest and easiest biglaw market, NY (which you won't do).

WUSTL at 74k would be fine since biglaw isn't a major goal. Though I would caution that midlaw doesn't exist as an entry level job, and state/federal government jobs aren't abundant; you're more likely to end up in small law. I also wonder if WUSTL will really help you get a job in the south without ties.

Cornell at over 200k is insane if you're not going to live in NY.

Basically, none of these options match your goals all that great. I would seriously consider looking for a non-legal job in Atlanta (the biggest southern market); and reapply to law school after working their for 2 years. I would be careful shooting for NC or Nashville, they are much smaller markets with way too many people trying to break in. If you're not willing to do that then I would recommend WUSTL.

[Nomo]

but I'm worried about not getting into the south without significant ties.

Understandably, but if your SO becomes a fiance in the next three years and she's living in the south for work/family/etc. that should establish ties. Vandy isn't (probably) going to be enough on its own to establish ties to the region regardless.

Ties to secondary markets (especially southern ones) need to be stronger than major markets like California or Chicago. The fiance thing is undoubtedly helpful, but if you're finace is working in Atlanta the follow-up question is likely to be: is your fiance from Atlanta? I the answer is, No, she's from Boston that's going to hurt big time. The concern will be that neither of you are from the area, neither have friends or family keeping you there, and neither of you will understand or enjoy the culture. If you're both from the northeast, what's to stop you from both wanting to leave in 3 years.

[DavidLindhagen]

If you're both from the northeast, what's to stop you from both wanting to leave in 3 years.

I completely understand your argument. But at the same time the only thing that is stopping me from leaving the northeast, is the idea "nothing is stopping me from leaving the southeast".

Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like that argument is very circular. That is my issue with WUStL, and a bit with Vandy. If I go there and try to get a job in StL, "Well, he's from Boston so he's a flight risk". If I go there and try to get a job in Boston, "Well, he went to school in StL, and not locally (or a T14) so he's a flight risk".

Am I wrong?

[DavidLindhagen]

Do we know if Philly is realistic out of GULC?

S/O has ties there.

[Nomo]

If you're both from the northeast, what's to stop you from both wanting to leave in 3 years.

I completely understand your argument. But at the same time the only thing that is stopping me from leaving the northeast, is the idea "nothing is stopping me from leaving the southeast".

Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like that argument is very circular. That is my issue with WUStL, and a bit with Vandy. If I go there and try to get a job in StL, "Well, he's from Boston so he's a flight risk". If I go there and try to get a job in Boston, "Well, he went to school in StL, and not locally (or a T14) so he's a flight risk".

Am I wrong?

Based on my observations and the observations of others who have been through law school . . .

Hiring partners in secondary markets like Atlanta strongly prefer to hire people who either went to undergrad and law school in their region; or who grew up or worked in their region. This trend is even more pronounced in smaller markets like Nashville and NC. Their reasoning is that they don't want people to leave. Whether their reasoning is wise, or whether they should apply it to you is irrelevant - because they will apply it to you.

The biggest thing you can do to help yourself (other than going to school where you want to practice) is to do your 1L summer in the place you most want a job. I don't think people in Boston will be turned off that you went to a good school like Vandy, especially if you then do your 1L summer back in Boston. But, if you do your 1L summer in Nashville or Atlanta flags start going up - it may not keep you out of boston, but flags go up.

Likewise, if you go to Vandy and then do your 1L summer in Boston you can kiss the south goodbye.

The above advice is mainly geared at getting a 2L SA position. If you don't go for that, or don't want it you really should spend both summers in the place you want to work. So if you got to Vandy and spend both summers in the south I think you'll be taken seriously for non-biglaw jobs in the south.

[DavidLindhagen]

Based on my observations and the observations of others who have been through law school . . .

Hiring partners in secondary markets like Atlanta strongly prefer to hire people who either went to undergrad and law school in their region; or who grew up or worked in their region. This trend is even more pronounced in smaller markets like Nashville and NC. Their reasoning is that they don't want people to leave. Whether their reasoning is wise, or whether they should apply it to you is irrelevant - because they will apply it to you.

The biggest thing you can do to help yourself (other than going to school where you want to practice) is to do your 1L summer in the place you most want a job. I don't think people in Boston will be turned off that you went to a good school like Vandy, especially if you then do your 1L summer back in Boston. But, if you do your 1L summer in Nashville or Atlanta flags start going up - it may not keep you out of boston, but flags go up.

Likewise, if you go to Vandy and then do your 1L summer in Boston you can kiss the south goodbye.

The above advice is mainly geared at getting a 2L SA position. If you don't go for that, or don't want it you really should spend both summers in the place you want to work. So if you got to Vandy and spend both summers in the south I think you'll be taken seriously for non-biglaw jobs in the south.

I really appreciate the input, so thank you!

I think that would be the goal is to spend both summers in my target market. If I went to Vandy, it would be Nashville or Atlanta.

spend both summers in the south I think you'll be taken seriously for non-biglaw jobs in the south.

Will I also be taken seriously for biglaw jobs in the south?

Also:

If I pick GULC, what's the best route to end up in the south? Do I gun for it from the start? Do I try and get DC or Northeast then lateral down after a few years? Also worried about GULC's lowerish clerkship %.

[transferror]

Vandy and WUSTL are non-starters without ties to a southern market. Of the options, I like GULC for 143k. However, there are a lot bad outcomes for you at GULC without ties to the South and being NYC-averse (on top of the 50/50 shot to begin with).

Why not go to Emory w/ big $$ or hell, stay at BC or BU with big $$? I think any of those options at <60k debt is feasible with your numbers, gives you a shot at your goals, and has much less risk attached. If you're going to gun for a market to which you have no ties (like ATL), going to a reputable school in the city (like Emory) on a full-ride is probably your best shot.

Where else did you apply?

[DavidLindhagen]

Vandy and WUSTL are non-starters without ties to a southern market. Of the options, I like GULC for 143k. However, there are a lot bad outcomes for you at GULC without ties to the South and being NYC-averse (on top of the 50/50 shot to begin with).

Why not go to Emory w/ big $$ or hell, stay at BC or BU with big $$? I think any of those options at <60k debt is feasible with your numbers, gives you a shot at your goals, and has much less risk attached. If you're going to gun for a market to which you have no ties (like ATL), going to a reputable school in the city (like Emory) on a full-ride is probably your best shot.

Where else did you apply?

Thank you for your productive input.

LOL, those schools you mentioned would not budge on $ and would cost around the same price as GULC/Vandy.

[Nomo]

Based on my observations and the observations of others who have been through law school . . .

Hiring partners in secondary markets like Atlanta strongly prefer to hire people who either went to undergrad and law school in their region; or who grew up or worked in their region. This trend is even more pronounced in smaller markets like Nashville and NC. Their reasoning is that they don't want people to leave. Whether their reasoning is wise, or whether they should apply it to you is irrelevant - because they will apply it to you.

The biggest thing you can do to help yourself (other than going to school where you want to practice) is to do your 1L summer in the place you most want a job. I don't think people in Boston will be turned off that you went to a good school like Vandy, especially if you then do your 1L summer back in Boston. But, if you do your 1L summer in Nashville or Atlanta flags start going up - it may not keep you out of boston, but flags go up.

Likewise, if you go to Vandy and then do your 1L summer in Boston you can kiss the south goodbye.

The above advice is mainly geared at getting a 2L SA position. If you don't go for that, or don't want it you really should spend both summers in the place you want to work. So if you got to Vandy and spend both summers in the south I think you'll be taken seriously for non-biglaw jobs in the south.

I really appreciate the input, so thank you!

I think that would be the goal is to spend both summers in my target market. If I went to Vandy, it would be Nashville or Atlanta.

spend both summers in the south I think you'll be taken seriously for non-biglaw jobs in the south.

Will I also be taken seriously for biglaw jobs in the south?

Also:

If I pick GULC, what's the best route to end up in the south? Do I gun for it from the start? Do I try and get DC or Northeast then lateral down after a few years? Also worried about GULC's lowerish clerkship %.

Well you only get 1 summer before the biglaw hiring process starts up so probably a little less seriously than if you had the 2 summers. And for all of these, understand that while you can be taken seriously if you've got the fiance and the summers most employers will still prefer someone who has a longer history of ties assuming if that person is an otherwise similar candidate to you. And I highly encourage you to focus on Atlanta over Nashville. One other thing - do you have a notable Boston accent? That's the kind of thing that could hurt you. You probably don't have a feel for it, you would need to ask a southern who currently lives in the south how you sound.

If you go to GULC I think you should forget about the south, unless you want to count northern virginia, DC, and maryland as the south.

[arklaw13]

Vandy 1L here. Nix Cornell. Too expensive when you don't want NY.

Without ties, ending up in a lot of southern markets is really tough unless you have really high grades. This is especially true for Atlanta, and Nashville to a somewhat lesser (but still high) extent. If you don't make top 20%, Atlanta is unlikely to happen. Looking at c/o 2013, almost everyone who got at Atlanta was either 1) from there, 2) had dean's list (top 20%), and/or 3) law review. Nashville is hard because so many people want to stay and there's plenty of people who either grew up in Nashville or went to Vandy undergrad. Unless you're at least top third, you probably won't get any offers. Don't know about NC, but that's a pretty small market and you're competing with Duke people. Charlotte is very finance-oriented and there probably aren't too many litigation opportunities.

If you had decent ties to any southern market, $150k might be worth it (or might not), but since you don't, I would say that's too much debt. Southeastern markets are hard to get if you do have ties. If you were engaged to your SO and she was from a city with a strong legal market, like Birmingham or Atlanta, that might change the situation somewhat.

People go to Boston from Vandy, but I have no idea what kind of grades are required. Probably very good grades. Wouldn't bank on it.

Would not do GULC or WUSTL either. GULC's employment figure's are not substantially different than Vandy's and you said you don't want NYC. I'm not sure how you ended up paying similar prices for Vandy and GULC. I've seen people get half tuition at Vandy and sticker at GULC since they're so stingy. WUSTL - just no. Doesn't make sense at all with your goals.

[kalvano]

I have nothing terribly useful to add other than awesome user name. Great movie.

[transferror]

Vandy and WUSTL are non-starters without ties to a southern market. Of the options, I like GULC for 143k. However, there are a lot bad outcomes for you at GULC without ties to the South and being NYC-averse (on top of the 50/50 shot to begin with).

Why not go to Emory w/ big $$ or hell, stay at BC or BU with big $$? I think any of those options at <60k debt is feasible with your numbers, gives you a shot at your goals, and has much less risk attached. If you're going to gun for a market to which you have no ties (like ATL), going to a reputable school in the city (like Emory) on a full-ride is probably your best shot.

Where else did you apply?

Thank you for your productive input.

LOL, those schools you mentioned would not budge on $ and would cost around the same price as GULC/Vandy.

How early did you apply and did you have the 169 when you applied or on a retake afterwards? How the hell was I supposed to know where you applied?

I think that would be the goal is to spend both summers in my target market. If I went to Vandy, it would be Nashville or Atlanta.

Targeting Nashville is unwise without ties; the market in Nashville isn't huge and is really insular. Even if you get past the ties issue in Atlanta, they are picky about grades. Vandy for 150k is a bad idea.

[84651846190]

Friends don't let friends go to WUSTL law school, unless it's free or damn near close to free.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I think with your numbers GULC at that price is a good option.

[DavidLindhagen]

One other thing - do you have a notable Boston accent? That's the kind of thing that could hurt you. You probably don't have a feel for it, you would need to ask a southern who currently lives in the south how you sound.

I have confirmed that I don't have much of a Boston accent, if at all.

People go to Boston from Vandy, but I have no idea what kind of grades are required. Probably very good grades. Wouldn't bank on it.

Would not do GULC or WUSTL either. GULC's employment figure's are not substantially different than Vandy's and you said you don't want NYC. I'm not sure how you ended up paying similar prices for Vandy and GULC. I've seen people get half tuition at Vandy and sticker at GULC since they're so stingy. WUSTL - just no. Doesn't make sense at all with your goals.

After talking with a few alum, and some biglaw partners in Boston, Vandy seems very doable in Boston. It's just Vandy grads are fewer and farther between than GULC grads.

I don't really understand how I got GULC lower than Vandy. I heard Vandy doesn't budge if I show them GULC's offer, too.

How early did you apply and did you have the 169 when you applied or on a retake afterwards? How the hell was I supposed to know where you applied?

Applied in December with the 169. I wasn't lol'ing at you, just at their offers.

Friends don't let friends go to WUSTL law school, unless it's free or damn near close to free.

Unfortunately that's as close to free as I can possibly get...

[bound]

With free tuition from WUSTL, that 70K COA is a little bit high. I think you would have to try to spend that on living expenses in STL. That is all

[DavidLindhagen]

Edited!

[arklaw13]

That's a pretty decent price for GULC.

[twenty]

If it was a good choice at 140k, it's definitely a good choice at 110k.