Am I crazy? UChicago vs. Northwestern Forum

[cotiger]

But as for the general lay prestige thing, you refer to the other oddly utilized metric: what does a know-nothing (in the nicest possible way) high schooler think?

My high-school sent about 1/3 of its class to Ivies, and another 1/3 to UVA/Berkeley/Michigan level publics. I think we were about as plugged into prestige rankings as you can reasonably expect. Note: I grew up in the 1990's and applied to college around 2001, and U of Chicago was ranked 10-14 most of those years (as was Northwestern). See: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... bbVQTAn6MQ. U of Chicago being a "top 5" in terms of undergraduate rankings is quite a recent thing. Most lay-people that will matter to your career will be as old as me or older.

Well, you're only five years older than I am, so I don't think it's that. UChicago's top status is not a new phenomenon anyway lol. Honestly, I think that's more likely due to a really strong northeastern educational homerism. To have gone to a school that sends kids to good colleges and never even hearing of Northwestern or Chicago is unfathomable to me. But again, that really just speaks to the silliness of using the metric of "what do uninformed high schoolers think?" in assessing prestige. People who've gone to college know what's up.

eta: none of which is to contradict anything anyone has said in this thread that is directly relevant to OP

[lecsa]

But as for the general lay prestige thing, you refer to the other oddly utilized metric: what does a know-nothing (in the nicest possible way) high schooler think?

My high-school sent about 1/3 of its class to Ivies, and another 1/3 to UVA/Berkeley/Michigan level publics. I think we were about as plugged into prestige rankings as you can reasonably expect. Note: I grew up in the 1990's and applied to college around 2001, and U of Chicago was ranked 10-14 most of those years (as was Northwestern). See: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... bbVQTAn6MQ. U of Chicago being a "top 5" in terms of undergraduate rankings is quite a recent thing. Most lay-people that will matter to your career will be as old as me or older.

Well, you're only five years older than I am, so I don't think it's that. UChicago's top status is not a new phenomenon anyway lol. Honestly, I think that's more likely due to a really strong northeastern educational homerism. To have gone to a school that sends kids to good colleges and never even hearing of Northwestern or Chicago is unfathomable to me. But again, that really just speaks to the silliness of using the metric of "what do uninformed high schoolers think?" in assessing prestige. People who've gone to college know what's up.

eta: none of which is to contradict anything anyone has said in this thread that is directly relevant to OP

Not replying to me, but not necessarily. I ended going to a top undergrad and my college classmate confused UPenn with Penn State. People aren't as obsessed with rankings as everyone thinks. My friend who went to HYPS had no idea Cornell is an ivy. A lot of the time you just apply to good colleges in your region and don't look elsewhere for undergrad.

[cotiger]

Well, you're only five years older than I am, so I don't think it's that. UChicago's top status is not a new phenomenon anyway lol. Honestly, I think that's more likely due to a really strong northeastern educational homerism. To have gone to a school that sends kids to good colleges and never even hearing of Northwestern or Chicago is unfathomable to me. But again, that really just speaks to the silliness of using the metric of "what do uninformed high schoolers think?" in assessing prestige. People who've gone to college know what's up.

eta: none of which is to contradict anything anyone has said in this thread that is directly relevant to OP

Not replying to me, but not necessarily. I ended going to a top undergrad and my college classmate confused UPenn with Penn State. People aren't as obsessed with rankings as everyone thinks. A lot of the time you just apply to good colleges in your region and don't look elsewhere for undergrad.

For sure. That's where I think a lot of the Northeastern homerism/myopia comes from: there's so many good schools right there that you don't ever have to look anywhere else if you don't want to. When you're from TX, you tend to research schools across the country.

[09042014]

After reading OP's comments, he should definitely go to U of C.

[Mal Reynolds]

After reading OP's comments, he should definitely go to U of C.

Lol. But also true.

[jonny09x1]

After reading OP's comments, he should definitely go to U of C.

Lol. But also true.

What's so funny lol

[igo2northwestern]

I'd be surprised if the opportunities at the two schools were actually so different. If OP were gunning for Wachtell/Munger, s/he should more strongly focus on HYS. It's a crapshoot out of Chicago and Columbia, and even more difficult out of NU. I'd guess that the top 1.5% (5 students) here have a good shot -- someone correct me if I'm off. As for the V10 more generally, and some other sought after firms, students here have a great shot; for some of them, as good or better than UoC.

I think the definition of "elite" in this thread is a bit off. V10 and V5 are aspirations at nearly every law school in the country, save perhaps Yale. Apart from Wachtell, firms recruit very actively here. And you're not losing out on much, if 3 or so firms aren't so active on campus.

At least for Chicago, you are off. To use your examples, Wachtell/Munger gave CBs to people in the top 15% (give or take). We've already had this discussion, so I do not understand why you keep coming back to it. Hiring at very selective firms? Big difference. Overall? Not a big difference.

Put me in the Rayiner camp - for mid-level prestige, it is HYS >>>> the rest. If you want to take Chicago over NU, do so, but for the right reasons.

So I'm not clear on the stats of the person who got Munger in our year; I'm sure she's Magna, which makes her top 10%, but not a Summa. As for the 1.5% that I mentioned earlier, I was going by "numbers of students who could realistically go there from NU", all considered -- not just grades.

Here's the data you wanted. Can't believe I actually took time out of my 3L schedule to put this together. Class sizes this year: 196 (Chi) and 229 (NU). NU's class size last year was smaller, but whatever. OP, conclude what you will. I'm sure WheninLaw will provide his scholarly wisdom because he cares so deeply for me.

Wachtell (V1)
Numbers not available

Cravath (V2)
NU 2
Chi 8
CLS 17
HLS 18

Sullivan (V3)
NU 5
Chi 7
CLS 17
HLS 22

Skadden Chi (V4)
NU 5
Chi 4
HLS 2

DPW (V5)
NU 1
Chi 3
CLS 23
HLS 19

Weil (V6)
NU 4
Chi 0
CLS 10
HLS 6

Simpson (V7)
Numbers Not Available

Cleary (V8)
NU 3
Chi 1
CLS 15
HLS 17

K&E (Chi) (V9)
NU 13
Chi 17
CLS 0
HLS 3

Williams & Connolly
NU 2
Chi 1
CLS 2
HLS 5

Paul Weiss NY
NU 0
Chi 1
CLS 11
HLS 6

[jbagelboy]

I'd be surprised if the opportunities at the two schools were actually so different. If OP were gunning for Wachtell/Munger, s/he should more strongly focus on HYS. It's a crapshoot out of Chicago and Columbia, and even more difficult out of NU. I'd guess that the top 1.5% (5 students) here have a good shot -- someone correct me if I'm off. As for the V10 more generally, and some other sought after firms, students here have a great shot; for some of them, as good or better than UoC.

I think the definition of "elite" in this thread is a bit off. V10 and V5 are aspirations at nearly every law school in the country, save perhaps Yale. Apart from Wachtell, firms recruit very actively here. And you're not losing out on much, if 3 or so firms aren't so active on campus.

At least for Chicago, you are off. To use your examples, Wachtell/Munger gave CBs to people in the top 15% (give or take). We've already had this discussion, so I do not understand why you keep coming back to it. Hiring at very selective firms? Big difference. Overall? Not a big difference.

Put me in the Rayiner camp - for mid-level prestige, it is HYS >>>> the rest. If you want to take Chicago over NU, do so, but for the right reasons.

So I'm not clear on the stats of the person who got Munger in our year; I'm sure she's Magna, which makes her top 10%, but not a Summa. As for the 1.5% that I mentioned earlier, I was going by "numbers of students who could realistically go there from NU", all considered -- not just grades.

Here's the data you wanted. Can't believe I actually took time out of my 3L schedule to put this together. Class sizes this year: 196 (Chi) and 229 (NU). NU's class size last year was smaller, but whatever. OP, conclude what you will. I'm sure WheninLaw will provide his scholarly wisdom because he cares so deeply for me.

Wachtell (V1)
Numbers not available

Cravath (V2)
NU 2
Chi 8
CLS 17
HLS 18

Sullivan (V3)
NU 5
Chi 7
CLS 17
HLS 22

Skadden Chi (V4)
NU 5
Chi 4
HLS 2

DPW (V5)
NU 1
Chi 3
CLS 23
HLS 19

Weil (V6)
NU 4
Chi 0
CLS 10
HLS 6

Simpson (V7)
Numbers Not Available

Cleary (V8)
NU 3
Chi 1
CLS 15
HLS 17

K&E (Chi) (V9)
NU 13
Chi 17
CLS 0
HLS 3

Williams & Connolly
NU 2
Chi 1
CLS 2
HLS 5

Paul Weiss NY
NU 0
Chi 1
CLS 11
HLS 6

Putting just the Chicago offices of some V10s and then the flagship NY offices of others (I recognize there are no Chi offices for some firms) might distort the relative placement of each school based on city.

[igo2northwestern]

I'd be surprised if the opportunities at the two schools were actually so different. If OP were gunning for Wachtell/Munger, s/he should more strongly focus on HYS. It's a crapshoot out of Chicago and Columbia, and even more difficult out of NU. I'd guess that the top 1.5% (5 students) here have a good shot -- someone correct me if I'm off. As for the V10 more generally, and some other sought after firms, students here have a great shot; for some of them, as good or better than UoC.

I think the definition of "elite" in this thread is a bit off. V10 and V5 are aspirations at nearly every law school in the country, save perhaps Yale. Apart from Wachtell, firms recruit very actively here. And you're not losing out on much, if 3 or so firms aren't so active on campus.

At least for Chicago, you are off. To use your examples, Wachtell/Munger gave CBs to people in the top 15% (give or take). We've already had this discussion, so I do not understand why you keep coming back to it. Hiring at very selective firms? Big difference. Overall? Not a big difference.

Put me in the Rayiner camp - for mid-level prestige, it is HYS >>>> the rest. If you want to take Chicago over NU, do so, but for the right reasons.

So I'm not clear on the stats of the person who got Munger in our year; I'm sure she's Magna, which makes her top 10%, but not a Summa. As for the 1.5% that I mentioned earlier, I was going by "numbers of students who could realistically go there from NU", all considered -- not just grades.

Here's the data you wanted. Can't believe I actually took time out of my 3L schedule to put this together. Class sizes this year: 196 (Chi) and 229 (NU). NU's class size last year was smaller, but whatever. OP, conclude what you will. I'm sure WheninLaw will provide his scholarly wisdom because he cares so deeply for me.

Wachtell (V1)
Numbers not available

Cravath (V2)
NU 2
Chi 8
CLS 17
HLS 18

Sullivan (V3)
NU 5
Chi 7
CLS 17
HLS 22

Skadden Chi (V4)
NU 5
Chi 4
HLS 2

DPW (V5)
NU 1
Chi 3
CLS 23
HLS 19

Weil (V6)
NU 4
Chi 0
CLS 10
HLS 6

Simpson (V7)
Numbers Not Available

Cleary (V8)
NU 3
Chi 1
CLS 15
HLS 17

K&E (Chi) (V9)
NU 13
Chi 17
CLS 0
HLS 3

Williams & Connolly
NU 2
Chi 1
CLS 2
HLS 5

Paul Weiss NY
NU 0
Chi 1
CLS 11
HLS 6

Putting just the Chicago offices of some V10s and then the flagship NY offices of others (I recognize there are no Chi offices for some firms) might distort the relative placement of each school based on city.

I agree -- the only change I'd make though would be to substitute Skadden Chi data with Skadden NY, but that's all that's available on TLS. K&E makes sense since that's the firm's flagship.

[Pulsar]

You're forgetting that NYC is the easiest place to go to. It's harder to get a job at Jenner than it is at S&C for example. I doubt breaking out V10 comparisons or w/e will prove much. If NU's placement is better there then Chicago folks might say that's to be expected -- of course folks with fewer options will self-select into NYC, who wants to go there anyway, etc. etc. (NU kids trolling in the other direction is also ofc possible).

[igo2northwestern]

You're forgetting that NYC is the easiest place to go to. It's harder to get a job at Jenner than it is at S&C for example. I doubt breaking out V10 comparisons or w/e will prove much. If NU's placement is better there then Chicago folks might say that's to be expected -- of course folks with fewer options will self-select into NYC, who wants to go there anyway, etc. etc. (NU kids trolling in the other direction is also ofc possible).

Except at NU, Jenner is less selective than S&C NY or some other V10 firms for that matter. The GPA callback numbers of Skadden Chicago and K&E Chicago (the firm offices I listed) were higher than at Jenner for the last 3 years. This isn't to say that Jenner is not a great firm, of course.

If you want to include Jenner, you could be the good chap to list those numbers; they're not available on the TLS summer thread. While you're at it, you should probably list the regional offices of some other selective firms as well.

[Pishee77]

I am also choosing between Chicago and NU. I think at the end of the day you need to think about overall "fit." Where do you feel more comfortable? Go with your gut feeling because law school is going to suck regardless of where you go, might as well make the other variables in the decision (environment, social aspect, etc.) positive and something you are not concerned about. Maybe I am being sappy but that's my two cents.