Top Law Schools

Hey all.

I've been accepted to a number of schools, including Berkeley and Duke. Berkeley is without a doubt my first choice, and has been since I started considering law school. I found out about a week ago though that I got a $72,000 scholarship at Duke, the 'wild card' school on my list. Berkeley offered me $0 in need-based aid, and told me today that they won't match Duke's offer even partially. I am in-state at Berkeley, however, so that helps a little. (Really though, even in-state, Berkeley and Duke cost within $1,000 of each other because of the extremely different costs of living.)

Whatever I don't get in scholarship/need-based grants, I will be paying in loans, minus a small amount of savings and some family support, which would [probably] be the same amount no matter where I go.

I intend to go into public interest. (Public defense.) So, obviously, LRAP and planning for not making gazillions of dollars is important.

I've visited both schools (just got back from Duke, actually) and I am confident that I would be happy at either.

This should be an easy decision, right? I should go with the money. (I guess it's just hard to accept. I feel like if I turn Berkeley down I'm letting "the dream" slip away -- I've never wanted to go anywhere else.)

So... What am I forgetting to consider?


EDIT: Oh, yeah, and I am from California and hope to eventually return there for my career. This is obviously significant, though I'm unconvinced that a Berkeley degree will really make it that much easier to get a job than a Duke one. Am I wrong about that?

Berkeley

Berk isn't worth sticker and that's a great deal for Duke. With your ties getting back to CA should be easy. The only caveat is that Berk is better for PI, but it's a bad idea to take out sticker debt if you're PI or bust anyway. Go Duke or retake.

Berk would probably be better for Cali PD offices, however, no way I'd pay sticker at Berkeley, even if I wanted Cali BigLaw, so doing so for PI is outrageous. Like someone else said, ties should get you back, you just have to hustle, so Duke is the obvious choice of the two

I honestly don't think it matters. Normally I'm an advocate of less debt because you can do biglaw first to pay down, then go PI. But that doesn't apply to OP since s/he wants to do PD work. OP, if you are truly set on PD work then you will have to forego biglaw and rely on PSLF either way. Duke at 150k on a PD salary = PSLF. Berk at 225k on a PD salary = PSLF.

You're already going to be staking your career on PSLF, so if you're sure this is what you want to do, I don't see the harm in choosing Berkeley. Duke only makes sense if you're going to do biglaw first or are unsure about PD work and want a biglaw safety net to fall back on. I don't think that applies to you.

rickgrimes69 wrote:Berk isn't worth sticker and that's a great deal for Duke. With your ties getting back to CA should be easy. The only caveat is that Berk is better for PI, but it's a bad idea to take out sticker debt if you're PI or bust anyway. Go Duke or retake.

How is Duke better than Berkeley for CA when both prices are equal?

nebula666 wrote:

rickgrimes69 wrote:Berk isn't worth sticker and that's a great deal for Duke. With your ties getting back to CA should be easy. The only caveat is that Berk is better for PI, but it's a bad idea to take out sticker debt if you're PI or bust anyway. Go Duke or retake.

How is Duke better than Berkeley for CA when both prices are equal?

You're misreading OP. The base prices are equal, because Berk's instate tuition is canceled out by California's high CoL. Duke offered OP a large scholarship, so it's much cheaper.

SnakySalmon wrote:

nebula666 wrote:

rickgrimes69 wrote:Berk isn't worth sticker and that's a great deal for Duke. With your ties getting back to CA should be easy. The only caveat is that Berk is better for PI, but it's a bad idea to take out sticker debt if you're PI or bust anyway. Go Duke or retake.

How is Duke better than Berkeley for CA when both prices are equal?

You're misreading OP. The base prices are equal, because Berk's instate tuition is canceled out by California's high CoL. Duke offered OP a large scholarship, so it's much cheaper.

Yeah OP's post is incredibly confusing. Idk why it is so hard for someone to just say "COA = X for Duke and Y for Berkeley" without typing a whole goddamn paragraph.

If the costs are noticeably different, then the cheaper one is better.

transferror wrote: You're already going to be staking your career on PSLF, so if you're sure this is what you want to do, I don't see the harm in choosing Berkeley. Duke only makes sense if your going to do biglaw first or are unsure about PD work and want a biglaw safety net to fall back on. I don't think that applies to you.

+1

How committed are you to public interest?

wowhio wrote: EDIT: Oh, yeah, and I am from California and hope to eventually return there for my career. This is obviously significant, though I'm unconvinced that a Berkeley degree will really make it that much easier to get a job than a Duke one. Am I wrong about that?

For California PI work? Yeah, you're wrong. That doesn't mean you should pick Berkeley over Duke--as others are correctly pointing out, sticker at Berkeley carries significant risk (though it's not like you're going to Duke for free). If you choose Duke, I'd start tailoring my career around something other than California PI work. It's ok to keep it open as option, but you need some East Coast (and/or big law) contingency plans.

lecsa wrote:Easy choice- Duke.

Lesca--aren't you in big law? I feel like those of us in big law (myself included) should pause before we tell a PI-oriented person what the "easy choice" is.

My instincts are the same as yours--I mean, how does the OP even know that he or she will still want to do PI two years from now? Maybe the OP will be like many "PI-focused" students who, after a year of law school, decide to just go the big law route. In that case, then, yeah, the OP should go to the peer school with the lower COA.

But there are half-serious PI people and there are serious PI people. (I think that's why worldtraveler asked the OP about commitment to public interest.) I knew many students at Boalt who were truly committed to PI from the get go, and they've had good outcomes that, in at least some cases, would have been very unlikely out of Duke. They basically needed Boalt or Stanford (or HY) to make their careers work.

The TLS conventional wisdom is often biglaw-centric. For questions like this, I think we should leave the strong conclusions (e.g., "easy choice", "no brainer") to those with actual PI experience.

Did you get any full rides? I'm inclined to say a full ride to UCLA/USC would be way better if that happened for you.

rickgrimes69 wrote:Go Duke or retake.

I got a 177.

worldtraveler wrote:How committed are you to public interest?

I would say very committed, but I feel being overconfident is a mistake. While I feel passionately about doing PI work, I haven't yet been to law school. I don't know.

Is Duke really preferable for Big Law? I was under the impression they both were about equivalent in that, since they're so similarly ranked. I haven't done too much research about it I guess because, again, I'm PI-focused.

worldtraveler wrote:Did you get any full rides? I'm inclined to say a full ride to UCLA/USC would be way better if that happened for you.

I did not get any full rides, sadly.

wowhio wrote:

worldtraveler wrote:How committed are you to public interest?

I would say very committed, but I feel being overconfident is a mistake. While I feel passionately about doing PI work, I haven't yet been to law school. I don't know.

Is Duke really preferable for Big Law? I was under the impression they both were about equivalent in that, since they're so similarly ranked. I haven't done too much research about it I guess because, again, I'm PI-focused.

What do you mean by passionate?

Is it the issues, or you want to be in court all the time, or what? Passion is nice but it doesn't go very far in the actual job. Like, I really care about children in detention but that doesn't mean I'm not still incredibly bored writing this motion. Really think hard about why you want to do what you think you want.

OP, listen to worldtraveler. My advice was predicated on the fact that you are PI-focused, as in enough to maybe even work a non-law related PI gig before bailing to do biglaw. You need to do some thinking, because the level of commitment to PI will determine which school is the better option.

If you are unsure, then Duke is the safer bet. If you are hardcore PI and Cali, Berkeley is the way to go, but know that your commitment to PI better be serious, because you'll be in the hole a quarter million if you change your mind. There's nothing wrong with going the PSLF route, but it's a 10-year commitment. That's a long time to be doing something (with low pay especially) you dislike.

If you pick Duke you should PM prezidentv8 and ask him about coming back to CA from Duke. From what I know of the CA PI market, I don't think it would be a good plan.

worldtraveler wrote:

wowhio wrote:

worldtraveler wrote:How committed are you to public interest?

I would say very committed, but I feel being overconfident is a mistake. While I feel passionately about doing PI work, I haven't yet been to law school. I don't know.

Is Duke really preferable for Big Law? I was under the impression they both were about equivalent in that, since they're so similarly ranked. I haven't done too much research about it I guess because, again, I'm PI-focused.

What do you mean by passionate?

Is it the issues, or you want to be in court all the time, or what? Passion is nice but it doesn't go very far in the actual job. Like, I really care about children in detention but that doesn't mean I'm not still incredibly bored writing this motion. Really think hard about why you want to do what you think you want.

I have thought about it a lot and I believe that it really is what I want to do, what will make me happiest, and what I will find the most interesting about practicing law. So, basically, I think it will be the career that is most satisfying to me.

Then again, I think it's silly to be overly confident about this. After all, people realize they were wrong about what they wanted all the time. Especially when you do something like go to law school and get a whole new perspective on the career you think you want.

Post removed.

wowhio wrote:

worldtraveler wrote:

wowhio wrote:

worldtraveler wrote:How committed are you to public interest?

I would say very committed, but I feel being overconfident is a mistake. While I feel passionately about doing PI work, I haven't yet been to law school. I don't know.

Is Duke really preferable for Big Law? I was under the impression they both were about equivalent in that, since they're so similarly ranked. I haven't done too much research about it I guess because, again, I'm PI-focused.

What do you mean by passionate?

Is it the issues, or you want to be in court all the time, or what? Passion is nice but it doesn't go very far in the actual job. Like, I really care about children in detention but that doesn't mean I'm not still incredibly bored writing this motion. Really think hard about why you want to do what you think you want.

I have thought about it a lot and I believe that it really is what I want to do, what will make me happiest, and what I will find the most interesting about practicing law. So, basically, I think it will be the career that is most satisfying to me.

Then again, I think it's silly to be overly confident about this. After all, people realize they were wrong about what they wanted all the time. Especially when you do something like go to law school and get a whole new perspective on the career you think you want.

But why would it make you happy? Is it that you want to work directly with people, the issues, you want to be in court, or what?

What is it that you think you will find interesting? Practicing law is really different from just thinking a certain area of law is interesting.

MistakenGenius wrote:It just strikes me as completely asinine to go to Berkeley for 100k more than Duke, especially while Duke offers better employment opportunities in general. In other news, I'm shocked Berkeley wouldn't try to match Duke's offer at all. They are so stingy.

This is pretty much what I'm thinking at this point.

Also, I agree about it seeming stingy that they won't match Duke. I think maybe Berkeley believes I will choose them even at sticker, because I told them straight away that it's my first choice. It's stupid that they think that though... Obviously, it's not my first choice at any cost. The reason it is/was my first choice is that I thought they appreciated PI law and would be a good fit for me both academically and financially. GUESS I WAS WRONG.

worldtraveler wrote: But why would it make you happy? Is it that you want to work directly with people, the issues, you want to be in court, or what?

What is it that you think you will find interesting? Practicing law is really different from just thinking a certain area of law is interesting.

I get what you're saying I just don't know if me launching into a long justification of my interests is really productive for the thread.

What I will say is that I, right now, am thinking of doing public defense. Defenders are overworked, underpaid, and overburdened, but I want to do it anyway -- and I think I would be good at it. I want to be in court every day. I want to work directly with clients that really need me. I want to wake up every morning and know that what I do is extremely important, and never feel like my job is all about getting more money for people who already have it. And I feel passionately about the issues as well. If the state can't prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, I think the accused should walk free. When the state has the power to take away your liberty, or even your life, I think that you -- whoever you are -- deserve a competent defense, period. And this shit really matters, you know? What's at stake in a criminal trial isn't money, it's people's lives, reputations, jobs, freedom, liberties. Being convicted of a felony can mean losing your right to vote, in some states. It's high-stakes, and I'm attracted to that.

It's something I have thought a lot about. This 'plan' was definitely not the default one for me, or anything. You know those people that want to do defense because 'a lot of people go to jail for victimless crimes'? I am not one of those people. I want to be Judy Clarke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judy_Clarke

Please post total COA for each school. You can use the spreadsheet I created that can be found in this forum.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=225195