The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker Forum

[lecsa]

Half my friends had their parents pay all their tuition and costs after whatever scholarships they got. These rich kids had no idea what law school forums are and they don't waste time on these. So of course the poor people (people taking out loans) will be over-represented on this forum. Expect that close to half of your classmates will be rich.

I had no law school debt because my dad left me money for education, I spent almost none of it on undergrad, and I lived at home. But, without that money, I would never have gone to law school. Not a single person in my family would have supported me taking on a hundred thousand dollars in non-dischargeable debt for a degree that might lead nowhere.

I am still shocked that people are willing to take on all that debt and that risk just to be a lawyer. When I was spending time on TLS, I concluded that for many people, it really comes down to the lure of a six figure salary. I know people make all these spreadsheets and calculations, but those calculations are all dollar driven, no one quantifies the stress of debt or how fucking hard law can be sometimes or what happens if you hate your job, get stealthed, or, even at a seemingly solid biglaw firm like Dewey, have a criminal conspiracy running the books at the firm. Not to mention catastrophic economic events which happen from time to time.

There are so many other jobs, I guess I will never get the desire to pile on huge amounts of debt and invest 3 years of your life, for law. Do something else that won't cost you three hundreds thousand dollars. That is just so much money. It is bordering on criminal that law schools get away with charging so much. Medical schools at least can claim they need expensive stuff to teach.

So if I didn't have a way to go to law school, I would have found another job and career path. Just because the government will fund an extravagant education, that doesn't mean you need to go.

/end rant

Yeah,I think the 'professions' are now reserved for the rich. It's funny that posters on here think a lot of people pay for law schools themselves. A lot of T-14 students are children of wealthy businessmen; biglaw partners; celebrities etc. They aren't paying for anything. And I know a good handful of these people went into PI because they could afford to since they didn't have loans. (Again, funny, since a lot of people on here think that poor people paying with loans go into PI. A lot of them are rich kids who don't have to worry about living off 50k in a big city.)

[aboutmydaylight]

again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.

HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.

[NYSprague]

Half my friends had their parents pay all their tuition and costs after whatever scholarships they got. These rich kids had no idea what law school forums are and they don't waste time on these. So of course the poor people (people taking out loans) will be over-represented on this forum. Expect that close to half of your classmates will be rich.

I had no law school debt because my dad left me money for education, I spent almost none of it on undergrad, and I lived at home. But, without that money, I would never have gone to law school. Not a single person in my family would have supported me taking on a hundred thousand dollars in non-dischargeable debt for a degree that might lead nowhere.

I am still shocked that people are willing to take on all that debt and that risk just to be a lawyer. When I was spending time on TLS, I concluded that for many people, it really comes down to the lure of a six figure salary. I know people make all these spreadsheets and calculations, but those calculations are all dollar driven, no one quantifies the stress of debt or how fucking hard law can be sometimes or what happens if you hate your job, get stealthed, or, even at a seemingly solid biglaw firm like Dewey, have a criminal conspiracy running the books at the firm. Not to mention catastrophic economic events which happen from time to time.

There are so many other jobs, I guess I will never get the desire to pile on huge amounts of debt and invest 3 years of your life, for law. Do something else that won't cost you three hundreds thousand dollars. That is just so much money. It is bordering on criminal that law schools get away with charging so much. Medical schools at least can claim they need expensive stuff to teach.

So if I didn't have a way to go to law school, I would have found another job and career path. Just because the government will fund an extravagant education, that doesn't mean you need to go.

/end rant

Agree with you. I think the 'professions' are now reserved for the rich. It's funny that posters on here think a lot of people pay for law schools themselves. I went to school with children of wealthy businessmen; biglaw partners; celebrities etc. They aren't paying for anything. And a good handful of these people went into PI because they could afford to since they didn't have loans. (Again, funny, since a lot of people on here think that poor people paying with loans go into PI. A lot of them are rich kids who don't have to worry about living off 50k in a big city.)

A friend of mine took an in-house job at a large, world-famous museum in the city. She was the only person who worked there in any sort of management position who didn't have a trust fund. So the museum payed horribly low salaries. No one needed the money. People who needed the money couldn't afford to work there. She told me a story of someone who worked for over a year and had been accidentally grossly overpaid. When they went to discuss this matter and why it wasn't reported, the person sheepishly opened a desk drawer and all the years worth of unopened pay checks were just sitting there. He hadn't even bothered to look at them.

[NYSprague]

again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.

HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.

If the kids parents won't help, they shouldn't go. Obviously the parents feel that HYS law is a bad use of resources. Time to look at a different plan. Maybe the parents will kick in; maybe they won't. Like I said, no one I know would have suggested that I go to law school if I had to take on massive debt. It just doesn't make sense to start out 6 figures of debt in the hole. Maybe some rich parents realize that law school is a bad investment.

[FuriousDuck]

...

[aboutmydaylight]

I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.

The only solution is to steal your parents money.

[aboutmydaylight]

again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.

HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.

If the kids parents won't help, they shouldn't go. Obviously the parents feel that HYS law is a bad use of resources. Time to look at a different plan. Maybe the parents will kick in; maybe they won't. Like I said, no one I know would have suggested that I go to law school if I had to take on massive debt. It just doesn't make sense to start out 6 figures of debt in the hole. Maybe some rich parents realize that law school is a bad investment.

Sure, but you were in the fortunate situation where you had funds your parents had left you for education. The vast majority of people don't have that option. I'm curious, could you have used that money if you didn't spend it on school, or was it a take it or leave it type deal? If its the former, then I don't see how that's any different than taking on debt. After accounting for the time value of money, any psychological aspects of being in debt, interest, etc, you could end up in the same place in the long run. If its the later, then its not exactly a hard choice to make if the money is going to disappear if you don't use it.

[FuriousDuck]

...

[redsox]

I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.

The only solution is to steal your parents money.

I don't know if I'll go that far. I'm thinking I'll just con them into some agreement that's really favorable to me.

Neither a borrower nor a lender be,
For loan oft loses both itself and friend...

[FuriousDuck]

...

[cinephile]

So, the question is what's worse: owing money to family or to the government?

A friend of mine "owes" her parents about $300,000. I very much doubt that it will ever be repaid. Especially since her father is in his mid-70s. They must know she can't/won't pay them back and just consider this loan as an early inheritance.

[FuriousDuck]

...

[moopness]

Was seriously surprised to see DF as the op. He is one of the first people I would expect to give an op shit for posting yet another "fundamental problem" thread.

[NYSprague]

again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.

HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.

If the kids parents won't help, they shouldn't go. Obviously the parents feel that HYS law is a bad use of resources. Time to look at a different plan. Maybe the parents will kick in; maybe they won't. Like I said, no one I know would have suggested that I go to law school if I had to take on massive debt. It just doesn't make sense to start out 6 figures of debt in the hole. Maybe some rich parents realize that law school is a bad investment.

Sure, but you were in the fortunate situation where you had funds your parents had left you for education. The vast majority of people don't have that option. I'm curious, could you have used that money if you didn't spend it on school, or was it a take it or leave it type deal? If its the former, then I don't see how that's any different than taking on debt. After accounting for the time value of money, any psychological aspects of being in debt, interest, etc, you could end up in the same place in the long run. If its the later, then its not exactly a hard choice to make if the money is going to disappear if you don't use it.

Only for education. My dad didn't want us pissing it away on other stuff.
You are the first person I've known who found my Dad dying young as a fortunate situation.

[Cicero76]

again though, if they're paying sticker its for the most part because they can afford to do so without taking out loans for the whole thing.

HYS expect an initial student contribution of ~40k a year. They also assume your parents will help you pay. The people in the worse position are going to be kids with rich parents who aren't helping them at all.

At 40k a year, you're looking at about 140-150k in debt at graduation.

I get that debt sucks and all, but that's really not that bad a price for an HYS degree. The only people paying sticker should be able to afford it unless their parents are boomer sticklers

[NYSprague]

I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.

Maybe look at it as you can't afford to go. Figure out a good alternate plan

How prestige obsessed are they? If you tell them you don't want to be that much in debt, so you are finding another career or you are going to a low ranked school instead, what would they do?

[09042014]

Was seriously surprised to see DF as the op. He is one of the first people I would expect to give an op shit for posting yet another "fundamental problem" thread.

this thread was meant to be a joke. The sort of stupid joke I find hilarious

[NYSprague]

Was seriously surprised to see DF as the op. He is one of the first people I would expect to give an op shit for posting yet another "fundamental problem" thread.

this thread was meant to be a joke. The sort of stupid joke I find hilarious

Didn't see DF was the OP.

[KatyMarie]

I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.

Maybe look at it as you can't afford to go. Figure out a good alternate plan

How prestige obsessed are they? If you tell them you don't want to be that much in debt, so you are finding another career or you are going to a low ranked school instead, what would they do?

Oh come off it. Seriously. Are they going to take your house or destroy your credit because you didn't pay back your interest-free loan in a timely manner? No. If you can "borrow" this kind of money from your parents, then don't even worry about it. Worst case scenario-> You have trouble paying it back and they give you shit for it. I'm sure they're not going to expect you to pay if you're unemployed or underemployed. They have enough money to bankroll your education and are probably just going down the "bootstraps" route because that's what they think they should do to "build your character" or whatever.

[KatyMarie]

So, the question is what's worse: owing money to family or to the government?

A friend of mine "owes" her parents about $300,000. I very much doubt that it will ever be repaid. Especially since her father is in his mid-70s. They must know she can't/won't pay them back and just consider this loan as an early inheritance.

I doubt very many of these "family loans" ever actually get paid back

[NYSprague]

I have family who won't give me money, but they'll loan me money, because I need to "pull myself up by my own bootstraps" or whatever. I'm really not sure how this is going to work.

Maybe look at it as you can't afford to go. Figure out a good alternate plan

How prestige obsessed are they? If you tell them you don't want to be that much in debt, so you are finding another career or you are going to a low ranked school instead, what would they do?

Oh come off it. Seriously. Are they going to take your house or destroy your credit because you didn't pay back your interest-free loan in a timely manner? No. If you can "borrow" this kind of money from your parents, then don't even worry about it. Worst case scenario-> You have trouble paying it back and they give you shit for it. I'm sure they're not going to expect you to pay if you're unemployed or underemployed. They have enough money to bankroll your education and are probably just going down the "bootstraps" route because that's what they think they should do to "build your character" or whatever.

Hard to know how much money they have. If the money is from a house or retirement savings, they probably want it back. Then there may be siblings who don't want so much of the pie going to one person in the family. That can get ugly.

Edit to add: i've known people who had to pay their parents back for medical school. The parents could easily have afforded the cost. They pay every month on a note. If they didn't pay, there would be huge turmoil in the family. How far the parents would go to collect the money if they defaulted is hard to predict. The parents see $300,000 as a fuckton of money.

[HRomanus]

Hard to know how much money they have. If the money is from a house or retirement savings, they probably want it back. Then there may be siblings who don't want so much of the pie going to one person in the family. That can get ugly.

THIS. My parents are offering to pay for my education (looking at a $60,000 COA) if my grandparents (who have made the same pledge) don't come through, but I am very, very reluctant to jump into that pool.

[jbagelboy]

I've been making the point re: TLS & the poors & the "sticker debt" peril being very often a mythical specter due to vast family wealth and support for a large % of the entering class at T6 schools for years. It's a false dilemma that ruins many a choosing thread on this board b/c people aren't sharing all their sources of financial support.

Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.

Again: Wealth is highly stratified in the states. Average household cash savings tend to be in the high four-low five figures ($7000-15000). Having $200,000+ Liquid places you in a different echelon of wealth, which means it's very, very rarely independent of other sources (people who have that kind of money almost always have access to a ton more, statistically speaking). Maybe you're still a puritan shrew and you're personally frugal but that doesn't change your normative fiscal relationship to others.

All this aside, no reason to stigmatize this wealth. It's a great thing for these individuals to be able to live without the constant deeply set fear of penury. Biglaw will be far more tolerable by all accounts. And their families have every right to invest their capital, earned or inherited or traded, how they please in our market.

[KatyMarie]

Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.

Amen jbagelboy.

[NYC-WVU]

Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.

Amen jbagelboy.

I agree that borrowing from family is fundamentally different, and the scenarios that you are talking about, where a student is "borrowing" 250K from their parents is nothing compared to the stress of borrowing 250K from a traditional lender. But there are scenarios where borrowing from family could be just as stressful, because your inability to return the money is affecting an actual person. My father just retired and could probably loan me between 50K and 100K, if I needed it. But assuming he hangs around for a while he will, undoubtedly, need that money to pay his bills.