The fundamental problem with HYS who paid sticker Forum

[Pneumonia]

Does YHS include applicant income in their calculations? Cause that massively assfucks "need aid" calcs. Northwestern included mine so my "need" was lowered due to money I was making a job I had to quit to attend. It's retarded. But NW also doesn't give need aid for real, so I'm not mad. But YHS does. Do they count it?

I know at least for H that they don't ask about your income because they're aware that you'll obviously be foregoing it to attend. They do ask about your parent's though as well as both your and your parents assets.

[09042014]

Also to the people saying that if your parents can pay for an expensive UG they can pay for law school, that's just not true. Plenty of families make a large sacrifice to pay for UG. That's expected of them by society. Society believes you are responsible for your kids college education. That stops being true at the graduate level. The assumption is usually the opposite, they students pay for themselves and the parents don't pay anything. Obviously a lot of rich families support their kids anyway. But a lot don't.

And a lot of upper middle class families cannot afford to after sacrificing through UG. Often doing so means reducing their retirement contributions, taking ParentPlus loans, saving since you were a baby, no vacations, etc. etc. My family struggled to put 4 kids through public universities. At the height my parents were paying probably 40k a year ( two of us were in at the same time for like 7 years). That doesn't mean that my family could just through another 40k/year for my education. They were tapped out. They didn't give me a penny, and I didn't ask for one.

[aboutmydaylight]

Does YHS include applicant income in their calculations? Cause that massively assfucks "need aid" calcs. Northwestern included mine so my "need" was lowered due to money I was making a job I had to quit to attend. It's retarded. But NW also doesn't give need aid for real, so I'm not mad. But YHS does. Do they count it?

S definitely asks for applicant income savings. That being said, its to my understanding (and my offer reflects this) that the vast majority of the calculation varies depending on parental income. Other things like parental assets/retirement, student income, etc. don't change the formula that much unless its something way out of the norm.

[cinephile]

Also to the people saying that if your parents can pay for an expensive UG they can pay for law school, that's just not true. Plenty of families make a large sacrifice to pay for UG. That's expected of them by society. Society believes you are responsible for your kids college education. That stops being true at the graduate level. The assumption is usually the opposite, they students pay for themselves and the parents don't pay anything. Obviously a lot of rich families support their kids anyway. But a lot don't.

This has been my experience. My mom put me through a very expensive liberal arts colleges and couldn't afford to help me with law school (nor should she at age 26-29). But I could've gone to the school where she teaches for free. And I really regret not doing that and having my education savings saved for law school.

[rad lulz]

.

[nunumaster]

Interested in how much more you would pay for HYS over NYU.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... w=viewpoll

[Innovative]

Just curious why no one ever talks about the intangible value of having a HYS degree. Even if a hypothetical scenario yielded two individuals who ended up attaining the same employment, i'd still think that most people would take some loss of economic value in order to have had the HYS experience (education, professors, campus, prestige, etc).

Also, this sentiment has been echoed on similar threads, but there does seem to be a longevity of value to HYS degrees past a 2L SA and a post-graduation associate position. Everyone I've talked to from HYS acknowledges that their degree has "opened up doors" (a life time benefit that can be reaped by HYS grads). For instance, if 10 years down the road a HYS grad decides to stop practicing law or move to a secondary market, the name recognition and portability of the degree gives these grads different opportunities and increased freedom.

[Rahviveh]

Just curious why no one ever talks about the intangible value of having a HYS degree. Even if a hypothetical scenario yielded two individuals who ended up attaining the same employment, i'd still think that most people would take some loss of economic value in order to have had the HYS experience (education, professors, campus, prestige, etc).

You'll find that once you're a law student the "experience" just blends together and becomes somewhat meaningless. I love most of my professors but I wouldn't pay a cent for any of them. Same goes for the "education", campus, or anything else like that. Granted I don't go to HYS so maybe being taught by Alan Dershowitz has some value but I doubt it.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Many people in this thread don't seem to realize that there is no data that is genuinely precedential. Yes, Obama went to HLS but his debt at graduation could not have exceeded 50k. There has never been anywhere close to the present disparity between the sticker cost to attend and the job placement/average starting salary currently in place.

[lecsa]

I've been making the point re: TLS & the poors & the "sticker debt" peril being very often a mythical specter due to vast family wealth and support for a large % of the entering class at T6 schools for years. It's a false dilemma that ruins many a choosing thread on this board b/c people aren't sharing all their sources of financial support.

Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.

Again: Wealth is highly stratified in the states. Average household cash savings tend to be in the high four-low five figures ($7000-15000). Having $200,000+ Liquid places you in a different echelon of wealth, which means it's very, very rarely independent of other sources (people who have that kind of money almost always have access to a ton more, statistically speaking). Maybe you're still a puritan shrew and you're personally frugal but that doesn't change your normative fiscal relationship to others.

All this aside, no reason to stigmatize this wealth. It's a great thing for these individuals to be able to live without the constant deeply set fear of penury. Biglaw will be far more tolerable by all accounts. And their families have every right to invest their capital, earned or inherited or traded, how they please in our market.

There are tons of rich kids at every T-14, not just T-6 (not sure why you made that distinction). Half the T-14 grads I know (went to different T-14s across the map) have extremely rich parents (net worth of 10mm+) who are in other professions, are the kids of biglaw partners, and of celebrities. Maybe I have a limited social circle but I think at least a third, if not half of the people who go to T-14 are rich. These people don't spend time on forums like this. I think TLS is just disproportionately full of poor people. These people don't usually go around talking about how rich their parents are or that they don't have loans, so you never know until you get to know them well.

[jbagelboy]

Just curious why no one ever talks about the intangible value of having a HYS degree. Even if a hypothetical scenario yielded two individuals who ended up attaining the same employment, i'd still think that most people would take some loss of economic value in order to have had the HYS experience (education, professors, campus, prestige, etc).

Also, this sentiment has been echoed on similar threads, but there does seem to be a longevity of value to HYS degrees past a 2L SA and a post-graduation associate position. Everyone I've talked to from HYS acknowledges that their degree has "opened up doors" (a life time benefit that can be reaped by HYS grads). For instance, if 10 years down the road a HYS grad decides to stop practicing law or move to a secondary market, the name recognition and portability of the degree gives these grads different opportunities and increased freedom.

Yea I mean relative to University of Iowa or ASU this is definitely true but the "experience" isn't distinct from the other top schools people are comparing them to in any of the categories you listed. And you can't identify with any specificities what these "doors" might be that are only "available" from 3 schools. The only real one I can think of is academia, and that's really just Yale.

I agree a Harvard degree has flexibility in secondary markets, but "10 yrs down the road" people will be looking at your performance at your previous employers.

[jbagelboy]

I've been making the point re: TLS & the poors & the "sticker debt" peril being very often a mythical specter due to vast family wealth and support for a large % of the entering class at T6 schools for years. It's a false dilemma that ruins many a choosing thread on this board b/c people aren't sharing all their sources of financial support.

Also people whose parents can front them $250,000 cash, regardless of whether it's guised as a loan or "college fund" or whatever, are very wealthy and need to stop pretending otherwise. It's simply disingenuous to complain about the cost your education relative to those without such generous support, since borrowing from the federal government at 7% interest is fundamentally different from borrowing from family. Sure, there may be a bourgeois crisis of emotional-financial tension but most waspy families have been shoving that shit under the rug since 1890. Your family isn't going to ruin your credit, debt-slave you, bankrupt you, garner your wages, or hold you hostage till death do us part. You're written into their will by law as an heir in most cases anyway.

Again: Wealth is highly stratified in the states. Average household cash savings tend to be in the high four-low five figures ($7000-15000). Having $200,000+ Liquid places you in a different echelon of wealth, which means it's very, very rarely independent of other sources (people who have that kind of money almost always have access to a ton more, statistically speaking). Maybe you're still a puritan shrew and you're personally frugal but that doesn't change your normative fiscal relationship to others.

All this aside, no reason to stigmatize this wealth. It's a great thing for these individuals to be able to live without the constant deeply set fear of penury. Biglaw will be far more tolerable by all accounts. And their families have every right to invest their capital, earned or inherited or traded, how they please in our market.

There are tons of rich kids at every T-14, not just T-6 (not sure why you made that distinction). Half the T-14 grads I know (went to different T-14s across the map) have extremely rich parents (net worth of 10mm+) who are in other professions, are the kids of biglaw partners, and of celebrities. Maybe I have a limited social circle but I think at least a third, if not half of the people who go to T-14 are rich. These people don't spend time on forums like this. I think TLS is just disproportionately full of poor people. These people don't usually go around talking about how rich their parents are or that they don't have loans, so you never know until you get to know them well.

Yea I was just posting to agree with you.

[Innovative]

Just curious why no one ever talks about the intangible value of having a HYS degree. Even if a hypothetical scenario yielded two individuals who ended up attaining the same employment, i'd still think that most people would take some loss of economic value in order to have had the HYS experience (education, professors, campus, prestige, etc).

Also, this sentiment has been echoed on similar threads, but there does seem to be a longevity of value to HYS degrees past a 2L SA and a post-graduation associate position. Everyone I've talked to from HYS acknowledges that their degree has "opened up doors" (a life time benefit that can be reaped by HYS grads). For instance, if 10 years down the road a HYS grad decides to stop practicing law or move to a secondary market, the name recognition and portability of the degree gives these grads different opportunities and increased freedom.

Yea I mean relative to University of Iowa or ASU this is definitely true but the "experience" isn't distinct from the other top schools people are comparing them to in any of the categories you listed. And you can't identify with any specificities what these "doors" might be that are only "available" from 3 schools. The only real one I can think of is academia, and that's really just Yale.

I agree a Harvard degree has flexibility in secondary markets, but "10 yrs down the road" people will be looking at your performance at your previous employers.

One specific example that has informed my opinion about "doors" came from an HYS grad who started in PI then decided to leave law for a year, and then was able to return to biglaw (the grad had attributed the interest of firms to an HYS degree). However, I didn't mean to imply that these doors are "only" available to HYS grads, just that the increased name recognition of the degree potentially provides extra flexibility in decisions such as transferring, joining midlaw, pursuing academia, etc. These examples and statements about "experience" are really just food for thought about why, even if initial outcomes are identical, it may still make sense to take some economic loss to pursue a degree at HYS.

[84651846190]

dear god please stop