Top Law Schools

-The schools you are considering
Michigan with 60k, USC with 135k
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each.
Michigan 126,000, USC 90,000
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
From California, I eventually want to end up here as well
-Your general career goals
Prestigious Gov
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
167 3.7
-How many times you have taken the LSAT
3x

Interesting that there have been more and more posters who have taken the LSAT 3Xs...

Michigan I guess

3.7/167 gets 20K a year to Michigan now? Why didn't I wait three cycles to apply?

Michigan.

Yeah I was pretty surprised at the amount that Michigan gave me. I know softs dont usually factor into $, but I have a pretty interesting one

Are those COA numbers taking interest into account?

how are you getting such a low coa at Michigan?

BigZuck wrote:Interesting that there have been more and more posters who have taken the LSAT 3Xs...

Michigan I guess

Yeah its weird. When I took it most people only took it once.

Michigan

I wouldn't pay anything to go to USC.

.

Prestigious Gov

Both of these options are hugely bad ideas for prestigious gov, and your likelihood of getting it is in the <10% chance range from either school. Furthermore, California is notoriously bad for prestigious government -- you will almost certainly have to live in DC for at least 5+ years, and where you end up after that is literally random because you have to sign a mobility agreement.

So if you want:

CA biglaw > any CA law > any biglaw, then USC and Michigan are basically tied.
CA biglaw > any biglaw > any CA law, then Michigan.

If you are dead set on prestigious government in DC, retake when you're able.

twenty wrote:

Prestigious Gov

Both of these options are hugely bad ideas for prestigious gov, and your likelihood of getting it is in the <10% chance range from either school. Furthermore, California is notoriously bad for prestigious government -- you will almost certainly have to live in DC for at least 5+ years, and where you end up after that is literally random because you have to sign a mobility agreement.

So if you want:

CA biglaw > any CA law > any biglaw, then USC and Michigan are basically tied.
CA biglaw > any biglaw > any CA law, then Michigan.

If you are dead set on prestigious government in DC, retake when you're able.

Interesting. Thanks for your thoughts. Does prestigious gov only go to HYS pretty much?

logical seasoning wrote:

twenty wrote:

Prestigious Gov

Both of these options are hugely bad ideas for prestigious gov, and your likelihood of getting it is in the <10% chance range from either school. Furthermore, California is notoriously bad for prestigious government -- you will almost certainly have to live in DC for at least 5+ years, and where you end up after that is literally random because you have to sign a mobility agreement.

So if you want:

CA biglaw > any CA law > any biglaw, then USC and Michigan are basically tied.
CA biglaw > any biglaw > any CA law, then Michigan.

If you are dead set on prestigious government in DC, retake when you're able.

Interesting. Thanks for your thoughts. Does prestigious gov only go to HYS pretty much?

Super-prestigious govt (i.e, DOS, City of SF) goes to Yale kids. From Harvard/Stanford, I'd venture that top 1/3 has a pretty decent shot at DOJ honors. SEC hires a lot of Columbia/Harvard kids, but a big part of that may be more related to location rather than school name (not that Chicago wouldn't have an equally-strong punch). Labor and Treasury are less prestige-conscious (though would still be considered "high prestige" for all purposes), but the former hasn't been hiring a lot recently, and Treasury is kind clerkship whorish in recent years (which again basically means top of HYS)

Either of these could be a good choice, but not with your career goal.

Come back with a realistic career goal (and two backup plans) and I'll tell you which option I think better serves your career ambitions. With your current career goal I recommend not attending law school . . . because you don't have a law school option that has a reasonable chance of helping you achieve your goal.

Basically what the guy above said... you need to figure out what you want to do, as well as a backup

lecsa wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Interesting that there have been more and more posters who have taken the LSAT 3Xs...

Michigan I guess

Yeah its weird. When I took it most people only took it once.

Michigan

I wouldn't pay anything to go to USC.

I think it's a really, really good sign. People go from considering near sticker at T30s to half schollies at T14s. I love it and commend all the students doing right by themselves by retaking until they've achieved their potential.

I'm saying I think you're fine looking at the government track. The DOJ honors thing is tough, but seriously, plan on clerking and finding a job at DOJ, SEC, Treasury, State, or wherever, after a year or two. You'll be fine at Michigan. The agencies are definitely not only hiring Yale grads. That's bull.

jbagelboy wrote:

lecsa wrote:

BigZuck wrote:Interesting that there have been more and more posters who have taken the LSAT 3Xs...

Michigan I guess

Yeah its weird. When I took it most people only took it once.

Michigan

I wouldn't pay anything to go to USC.

I think it's a really, really good sign. People go from considering near sticker at T30s to half schollies at T14s. I love it and commend all the students doing right by themselves by retaking until they've achieved their potential.

Depends on how much their scores increase. Tuition keeps increasing by 50k each year they wait, while salaries stay stagnant. Although of course, it seems a lot easier to get into law school these days so maybe merit aid balances it out.

I'm saying I think you're fine looking at the government track. The DOJ honors thing is tough, but seriously, plan on clerking and finding a job at DOJ, SEC, Treasury, State, or wherever, after a year or two. You'll be fine at Michigan. The agencies are definitely not only hiring Yale grads. That's bull.

They invented a time machine in 2004 and you're here in the future? That's awesome!

twenty wrote:

I'm saying I think you're fine looking at the government track. The DOJ honors thing is tough, but seriously, plan on clerking and finding a job at DOJ, SEC, Treasury, State, or wherever, after a year or two. You'll be fine at Michigan. The agencies are definitely not only hiring Yale grads. That's bull.

They invented a time machine in 2004 and you're here in the future? That's awesome!

I know recent grads from schools like Notre Dame, etc. working full time, paid for the DOJ. I also know order of the coif from lower T-14 who started full time with the DOJ without clerking first. They don't only hire Yale grads, but a lot of it has to do with either getting good grades from a T-14 or interning there for free after graduation and hoping a position opens up. I wouldn't rely on getting prestigious government straight out from any school though, even Yale.

Sure, but playing those odds is absolutely nuts. DOJH had, what, a <1% selection rate last year? When you invariably don't get into honors, your next best bet is to lateral in from an ADA/SAUSA gig. Both of which will also have insanely low selection rates and want to see lots of gunning/dedication. To say "you'll be fine at Michigan" as if that justifies taking out six figure debt is shameful.

I also know Loyola grads in biglaw. That does not mean you should go to Loyola for biglaw.

twenty wrote:Sure, but playing those odds is absolutely nuts. DOJH had, what, a <1% selection rate last year? When you invariably don't get into honors, your next best bet is to lateral in from an ADA/SAUSA gig. Both of which will also have insanely low selection rates and want to see lots of gunning/dedication. To say "you'll be fine at Michigan" as if that justifies taking out six figure debt is shameful.

I also know Loyola grads in biglaw. That does not mean you should go to Loyola for biglaw.

If you only want prestigious government straight out, you shouldn't go to law school, period, not even Yale.

If this person is willing to do biglaw, then federal government (which is much more likely and reasonable; in fact, pretty good odds after X number of years at a biglaw firm), then paying for law school is more reasonable.

Eh, I think a good argument could be made for HYS for prestigious government. If nothing else, the A3 -> ??? -> prestigious gov path becomes far more obtainable when your likelihood of getting an A3 gig in the first place is substantially higher from HYS.

twenty wrote:Eh, I think a good argument could be made for HYS for prestigious government. If nothing else, the A3 -> ??? -> prestigious gov path becomes far more obtainable when your likelihood of getting an A3 gig in the first place is substantially higher from HYS.

A lot of these agencies (not sure about DOJ Honors) want to hire people with real biglaw experience rather than just clerks. I know a few people who went to SEC, etc. after maybe 5 years in biglaw. None of them were HYS grads (and I think maybe most were not even T-14 grads). I think biglaw experience is almost a prereq for a lot of fed gov agency hiring.

.

mk.

twenty wrote:I don't understand what your point is. Yes, agencies hire attorneys with several years of experience. Yes, it is totally feasible that someone from a non-T14 school could get biglaw and then lateral over to a prestigious fedgov spot. My original argument is that it is silly/willfully destructive to tell OP:

but seriously, plan on clerking and finding a job at DOJ, SEC, Treasury, State, or wherever, after a year or two.

and:

You'll be fine at Michigan.

Point is I agree with Michigan